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Rayon thread


Pauline

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Has anyone had any success with rayon threads on George ? I've adjusted both upper & lower tensions. Tried size 80 & 90 needles. (my machine timed at factory for 80). Used Sewers Aid and retreaded to take some stress of the thread. And, still no joy :-( I can only sew about an inch or two with the 90 needle & maybe 6 inches with the 80. I can get a little further with the upper tension way too loose but as soon as I increase the tension so it isn't totally pulled to the back, the thread breaks immediately.

I took the thread upstairs & successfully quilted the small quilt on my Janome 6500 with nary a hiccup using the needle I had been using for piecing.

Anyone else figured out a solution??

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Sounds unusual when you refer to George's needle in 80 and 90 which are domestic needle terms,  so are you using the correct 134 MR or 134 SAN 11 needles in George.

George is an industrial machine that stitches at close to 2400 stitches per minute, which is twice the speed of the Janome 6500.  Rayon thread is more for domestic machines and is not as strong as the trilobal polyester threads that run in the industrial embroidery machines and longarm machines.

 

Can you put the thread through the guide above the tension dial in an up down fashion rather than wrapping it.  I don't  have a George but think the thread path would be similar to the other machines.

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Yes, they are the proper needles from APQS. They do have the industrial size as well as an 80, 90 or 110 designation.

Yep, have altered the thread path above the tension. I understand rayon is weaker but I'm also not trying to sew at max speed either. No matter what speed I run George I'm running into the issue. I have been free motion quilting for many years and just recently got my George. I have been trying to get the rayon to work since I got him. I did quit messing with trying & went back to regular thread & have been quilting charity nap quilts & lap quilts just to get the feel of things. Yesterday, I decided to try again & no luck so far.

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Dawp:  Give up on the rayon thread.  It's weak and doesn't wear well.  Not really a good quilting thread.  Begin using polyesters instead.  There are a number of nice ones available that  look as good as the rayons.  All the machine enbroiders are going to polyester now too.  Jim

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Jim, I realize the rayon is weaker. However, the strength really isn't that big of an issue for art quilts. However, I must admit, I've even used it in baby quilts & have found it has held up even after 4 years of use and washing. I probably have $3k worth of rayon & also a large stash of metallics I really want to be able to use. While I can use them on my Janome, the extra space for maneuvering would be great.

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Davyp:

I'm checking on the forum while out of town…otherwise I would throw some rayon on my George and fool around with it.  You're quite right that it should work for decorative quilting on art quilts (though not for piecing or construction-type sewing).  Since they use it on embroidery machines, it should be able to run at an average speed.  It sounds to me like you have tried everything I would recommend.  You could try an even bigger needle or make sure that you are using the embroidery needles as they have the bigger eyes.  The Schmetz industrial needles that fit George are the embroidery type.  What are you using in the bobbin?  Hang in there…I know how frustrating it can be to have shredding thead!     Nancy in Tucson (but currently not in Tucson)

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Thank you Nancy!! I will be out of town for the weekend also.

My machine was timed for 80's at the factory. I bought extra 80s as well as 90s from my dealer. I did try the 110 that was part of the sample pack I received & it did feel like I was sewing with a railroad spike ;-) unfortunately, if I remember, it broke the thread right away too. The break is happening right at the needle & doesn't seem to be because the thread is binding up coming off the cone.

I have tried using poly pre-wounds, regular 50wt and serger thread in the bobbin. I know, I know, the serger thread isn't as strong either but I like the weight, I have LOTS of it in many colors and it has worked very well for me in the past.

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The best advice I ever got from Dawn Cavanaugh (and I've had a lot of good advice from her) was to be unafraid of loosening the bobbin fairly drastically.  On my George, I have the bobbin case set so that, if I place the case in my hand and pull upward on the thread, the case just stands up but stays in my palm.  None of that spider crawl stuff - looser than that.  Then loosen the top tension pretty much all the way.  Sew a little, tighten the top a little at a time until you get the stitch you want.  

 

My George is also timed for the 80 needle but I run everything from 75's to 110 (18).  Typically the larger needle eyes are better for the more delicate threads but I hear you about the railroad spikes!

 

Nancy (still not in Tucson)

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Yep, I have loosened the bobbin thread. At one time to the point of free fall. I did tighten back to rappelling speed which is still looser than a typical DSM fall a bit then stop tension. Hope you understand, only way I can think to describe it. Where it is set now is pretty close to your stand in the palm. With everything loose & floppy, I could get a few more inches but still ended up breaking as soon as I nudged the tension.

I will work on it more on Monday. Like you Nancy, I am out of town and won't be able to play with George until Monday.

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So far, no joy in using anything other than poly thread. Dawn sent me instructions on how to re-time George so I may have to try that and see if he will sew with larger needles.

I did go out yesterday & and test drove the Baby Lock Tiara and was very impressed. There isn't quite as much space but she happily sewed away with poly. I loaded the cone of rayon & had no problem doing flowers, leaves, vines etc. only a minor tension adjustment & the 30 wt cotton sewed fine as long as I didn't try to sew too fast. I even tried the notoriously nasty Sulky sliver & all I had to do was make some minor tension adjustments & sew away. I really wanted the extra space of George. I really don't need the incredibly fast speed since my brain doesn't work that fast anyway

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Pauline, I have had a Baby Lock Tiara for a couple of months. I am a newbie on it but I really love it. I have been using cotton thread but I have lots of high quality poly because I am a machine embroiderer too, so I am definitely going to try it. Been using So Fine it the bobbin because that is what the seller gave me and recommended.  My machine is 1 year old and sews beautifully as far as I am concerned. 

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Is it the bobbin thread or top thread breaking? Is it breaking cleanly or melting? Can you tell? Rayon melts at a pretty low heat. I am just trying to help you trouble shoot here. Is it stretching somewhat before it breaks (you can usually tell because it will curl)? Rayon is not so bad to shred but...... it could. I can use most anything on my Freedom but I don't use Rayon and I don't use cotton unless I am forced to by a customer. I am a poly sort of girl.

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It is the top thread breaking and it's right at the needle. Same thing with 30 wt cotton. It isn't melting but breaking. So far, the consensus is only use regular weight poly because anything else is too weak. Sadly, I have a huge stock of rayon & cotton and would like to use it. The literature on the APQS flyer even said because the machines have only a single tension control, they can use a variety of finicky threads but that doesn't appear to be the case.

Dawn sent instructions for re-timing and when I can get to the store to buy emery cloth for polishing out the screw divots, I will give that a try. I bought George new the end of June and quilted a handful of charity lap quilts. I let him sit idle for a month or so due to vacations & other family demands. After that, I had problems & had to replace the circuit board twice. When I finally had time to try the rayon & cottons again, I find I still can't find a way to use them.

As you can imagine, I'm very frustrated & my tummy is in an uproar over the huge amount of money I spent on something that has so many limitations.

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I can run the rayon and monopoly in my millie without a problem and I never even slow down.  I quilt 90 miles an hour with my hair on fire!  There has to be something that will make this thread run for you.  The only thing besides checking for a burr somewhere that I can think of to have you check is the hook retention finger.  Once, I slid mine too far forward and found it was pinching the thread.  It wasn't letting the thread pass through easily enough and the top thread would break.  It should not be snug, only about half way into the slot.  Once I backed it out a little, the problem stopped.  That's one of the things I really love about my machine.  I can run any thread without a fuss.  This is my second one and neither machine was thread picky.

 

I do a lot of thread painting and grab whatever thread that's the right color.  I have a lot of rayon from my embroidery days and use it on art quilts.  Some areas I want something thin for shading, some areas I want thick to fill in quicker.  I usually run either Superior bottom line or sew fine or Fil-tec glide or classic in the bobbin (whatever color matches the backing).  I set the bobbin tension like Nancy.  Then it's just a top tension adjustment depending on what thread I happen to grab.  The only time I see any top thread on the back is when I have painted so densely (like machine embroidery) that I actually "push" some through with the needle.  Even then, it's barely noticeable.  It's not looped and rarely breaks even when I'm actually sewing right on top of another line of stitching.

 

I usually use the 4.0 needle (the 18, railroad spike) as the eye is bigger and because of the speed I quilt.  The 3.5 is smaller with a smaller eye.  I find I have to slow down or the thread will fray and break with the smaller needle and I hate to slow down!  I also use a lot of the Superior rainbow thread which some people seem to have trouble with.  Love the variegated for thread painting as I do a lot of wildlife and I like the texture it lends.

 

I hope you get this figured out.  I know how frustrating it can be when things don't go right.  Dawn's a wealth of information.

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Merry Jo, this is exactly what I was hoping for with George. I probably never will be a total hair on fire speed demon even though I do sew faster when doing big loops & simple designs on lap quilts.

I will check that hook finger in a few minutes. It's in the right spot to be causing the problems I'm having.

And, because I'm having problems when I try to use a larger needle, it's even more suspect.

Pauline

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Merry Jo, thanks for your suggestion. I had high hopes that might be the simple solution I needed but sadly it doesn't seem to be the problem. The gap looks to be just about right. The hook is about 1/3 way into the space and the thread moves nicely through it when I cycle through a stitch manually.

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I may have found the fix!! I adjusted the needle height just the wee tiniest bit so the hook passed just below the center point of the scarf rather than being almost at the bottom. So far so good!! I can now sew rayon with 80, 90, and even the 110 needles. I'm even able to sew at speeds faster than I would normally sew. As soon as I can, I plan on trying the 30 & 40 weight cottons and metallics to see if the will work now.

Dawn has been a huge help and very patient with my frustration. I had reached the point I was ready to sell George at a loss & buy a different machine with local support.

Doing a little happy jig that I hope turns into a full blown happy dance soon. :-)

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