tension woes

[smudges]

OK in the what do you want for Christmas post Linda described how to adjust the top tension by pulling the thread towards the back of the machine and changing the tension until the spring was at 8 o'clock.

What part of the spring should be at 8 o'clock when it the thread is pulled taut? The black loopy thing on my side tension knob is about 1/2 inch long, and it really doesn't move very much, even when the tension is so tight the thread can hardly move through it no part of it is down as far as 8 o'clock.

I have never been able to get good tension on my machine, I use the towa gauge for the bottom and right now my bobbin thread is looking perfect, but I am getting bobbin thread pulling through to the top. If I loosen the top thread enough to stop the bobbin thread pulling through then I get top thread showing through on the bottom. It drives me nuts, even if I use the same color in the top and bottom you can still see that it is not right. I am using king tut in the top and sew fine in the bobbin.

Any suggestions? I am desperate and willing to try anything (almost!) LOL!

Thanks!

Susan

[roberta]

I am not an expert, but are you sure your thread is between the tensions disks? and have you made sure there is no loose thread or anything in between the disks? I usually blow mine out with the air compressor when I am cleaning.

I am only a beginner so don't know the ropes, and I am sure others will jump in. But I just wanted to mention this since I had the same problem and it was because the thread wasn't placed smoothly in between the disks.

btw - when I say I had the problem it was my loop hook on the side of the tension disks that wasn't budging much (the one you loop the thread over after you go through the disks). You will know when it is budging.

[smudges]

Hi! Yes it is definitely between the discs and there is nothing else caught in there, I can feel it getting harder to pull as I tighten the tension.

My loop thing sits normally at about 11 o'clock, when it is at it's absolute tightest it sits at about 9 o'clock, the only way I can get it down to 8 o'clock is to push it with my finger LOL!

It doesn't seem to pull the bobbin thread to the top all the time, it does a few inches OK then the a few inches with bobbin thread showing, and so on.

Thanks!

Susan

[roberta]

Well my loop thingy sits with the bottom of the loop at around 10:00. I have perfect tension right now and don't want to play around with a quilt on, so I don't want to see what it is when it is at its tightest. (I think you understand ).

If I were you, and again I am not an expert, but I would go through a complete check. I would take the top and bobbin thread out. Clean and oil everything, carefully re-thread. I would check my needle to make sure it is the right size and sitting it the right position. Check that my hopping foot is a good height. If you are using a thick batting you need to raise it a little, thin batting lower it. You might even want to make sure that the spring is pressed down inside of the bobbin case. It sounds like alot but shouldn't take long and will give you confidence everything is good and ready

I did all of this when I had my problem (which by the way was the same thread combo) and I think what worked for me was giving the tension disk area a good cleaning. There is a section in the manual that explains the tensions disks. I just loosened mine really loose and got in there and cleaned it out really good and made sure they weren't grabbing my thread when I pulled it through. It seemed to do the trick for me.

Again, I am sure some of the more experienced people or the experts will jump in and help you. I just wanted to do what I could knowing that it is kind of late so there is not much action right now.

I wish you great luck. I know you will solve this problem.

p.s. - I should mention I have a Lenni. I don't know if that makes a difference.

[roberta]

Upon re-reading this I can see that all the stuff I mentioned is probably over board since you say when you tug on the thread it won't go to 8:00. These are just the things I do in the hopes of a miraculous fix. :P:P

It does however seem to me that really getting in there and cleaning the tension disks could help. When you get the tension really loose the thread should move smoothly through and then when you tighten it again you should get good resistance in the loopy thing.

I guess maybe I should leave this to the experts. I was just hoping I could help.

[ffq-lar]

Hi Susan,

The U-shaped spring in front of the tensioner on my machine sits at 10 o'clock without thread, and I set the tension dial so the thread deflects the spring to 8 o'clock when pulled smoothly through the needle towards the back of the machine. If your spring starts at 11 o'clock and deflects to 9 o'clock, it sounds right to me!! I use a Towa gauge for my bobbins and have found that 17-20 on the old gauge is a sweet spot for my bobbins. With the needle threaded and the bobbin brought to the top, pull each thread individually to the back/left of the needle. The force necessary to pull the thread should be about the same for each thread.

As far as top thread showing or bobbin thread showing, that sometimes is because of flat batting--like W&N or W&W. You will have better luck with a blend or full poly batting.

I find King Tut thread likes a thicker bobbin thread. I usually use BL pre-wounds but with Tut I need to tweak more and check the bobbin tension more often. I also get bottom loops with King Tut and a thinner bobbin thread.

I hope you can resolve your tension woes and stitch happily again!

[smudges]

OK now I am in trouble LOL!

I decided I would take my tension assembly out and clean it and take the check spring out and clean and check it also. So I followed the manual through, loosened the allan key 2 turns and took out the tension assembly, that was fine.

Then I loosened the screw and tried to take the collar with the check spring off the shaft with the tension discs and it will not budge. I loosened the screw so much it came off LOL and I got hubby to give it a good pull and it will not come apart. Any suggestions?

Thanks!

Susan

[smorris]

Hi Susan

Would you like me to visit? I could make it on Saturday?

Just a few things to check on first.

Since your bobbin thread looks very nice with only a tiny bit of bobbin showing on the top, you could very slightly loosen the top tension.

Your check spring in the bobbin tensioner should be at 11 o clock in its resting position. It should not touch the side of the machine.

When you pull the thread through the eye of the needle it should run quite freely with some slight drag, the check spring goes down to about 9 o clock.

If you do the drop test manually, the bobbin should drop very slowly like a spider crawling down a web. It should not drop fast and not to the floor.

Let me know if you need me to come out.

Best wishes

sue in australia

[smudges]

OK I got the shaft out eventually, the tail of the check spring was not in the groove and it was really dirty in there, so I cleaned it all out, oiled it again, put it back together correctly, wiped over the tension discs, put them all back again and now my checkspring is nice and springy

However it hasn't helped the tension, I still can't get it right. It hasn't been an issue until now because I have only done my own quilts and a couple of friends, but now I have some paying customers I need to get it right!

I have got it to the point where the bobbin thread is not showing as bad on the top, but the top thread is now just starting to peek out the bottom in places. I am using a 50% bamboo/50% cotton batting, I don't know of any thicker battings available in Australia other than that awful poly craft batting that feels like steel wool!

Thanks for the offer Sue but we will be out for most of the weekend, I will keep fiddling and if I still can't get it I will see if we can find a time when you can drop around and have a look

Thanks!

Susan

[Quilting Heidi]

Susan,

Maybe you should try using a double batting and see if that helps.

[RitaR]

Call APQS They are GREAT to help with tension problems.. etc.

RitaR

[DawnCavanaugh]

Susan,

Here are a few more things to consider when using King Tut:

[*] Go up to a 4.5 needle to reduce flex. KT is cotton and thicker, so it puts more "drag" on the needle as it enters and exits the fabric. Whenever the needle flexes away from the timing "sweet spot" you get tension imbalance. I'd guess it is most noticeable when you move the machine AWAY from you and to the LEFT (on the freehand side of the machine). Those two movement have the greatest impact on the needle.

Try slowing your motion down around curves, even with the stitch regulator turned on. This gives the needle a chance to "catch up" with your movements.

[*] Choose a stitch length that is somewhere between 10-12 stitches rather than longer lengths. The fewer stitches the machine tries to take, the longer the needle remains in the fabric before coming up to take another stitch--again, increasing the flex.

[*] Try threading the three-hole guide above the tension disks with a running stitch instead of wrapping it around (see the photo at the bottom of the most recent QuiltTalk article...follow the link below:)

QuiltTalk: Seasonal Tension

[*] Put a piece of batting inside the first thread guide above the King Tut spool. It should apply slight pressure to the thread so that the spool feeds consistently.

[*] Loosen up the quilt sandwich a little more. The tighter the fabric is, the more the needle flexes. If you ever machine quilted on a domestic machine before your longarm, think about how "tight" it was when you quilted....it wasn't tight at all, was it? For some reason we think now that we can tighten the quilt on a frame, we should. That makes it harder to get a nice stitch because any air space you do have gets compressed, and the needle penetrates the sandwich like it's trying to stitch through a drum skin.

[*] Finally, double check that you are really having "loops" or "pokies" on the quilt top or back, and are not just seeing the color of the thread inside the hole. If you can't feel the thread bumps on the quilt's surface or back, but can see color, your tension may be just fine; it's just the large hole left behind by the needle that makes the thread color visible "inside the hole".

When the quilt is bound, toss it in a clothes dryer on air fluff for a few minutes, and those holes should close up.

Let us know if you're still having trouble!

[smudges]

OK if this machine wasn't so big it would have been flying out the window hours ago LOL!

Thanks for all the suggestions, I really appreciate it!

I don't want to go to 2 battings, I can't imagine customers would like being told they had to have 2 battings in every quilt I did...

I have changed to a 4.5 needle.

It is a complicated panto so I am already going slow.

Stitch length is 12 (and I find that too big, I prefer 13 - 14 but thats too hard to unpick LOL).

3 holes guide is threaded with a running stitch as per the picture.

I have a piece of batting in the guide (which has made the problem worse I think).

I tried loosening my sandwich even more but then I got huge loopies on the bottom - I can stick my finger up from the bottom and pinch it on the top.

I can feel the thread with my fingernail when it pokes through on the top and the bottom.

I set my bobbin case so it "spiders" down, this measures 11 on my towa gauge, to get the tension close to balanced I then had to remove the tension nut from the top tension and let the discs sit apart so there is no tension on the top thread at all (and the bobbin thread was still showing on the top!).

The closest to a nice tension I can get is with my bobbin case on 35 on my towa guage (the bobbin is not going anyway when I do a drop test, even if I try flinging it). I can then tighten the top tension a little but I still get bobbin thread on the top (and the top stitches are so loose I can wobble them with my fingernail).

Is it possibly a timing issue? I have only ever broken one needle (I tried to move the machine while the needle was down in a quilt - oops) and have never hit a ruler or anything. My machine is just over 12 months old.

Or is it the problem with the King Tut, do I just throw it all away? Mind you I have the same problem with Sew Fine in top and bottom....

Thanks!

Susan

[DawnCavanaugh]

Susan,

A few more thoughts to try before flinging the machine...

You have a conundrum going on with the top thread. If the stitches are loose (not snuggling into the quilt layers, then that's a sign the top tension is too loose. However, the odd thing is that you're seeing the bobbin thread get pulled up to the top. Let's start over from the beginning (and if it's easier for you to call and do this, please do so. I about picked up the phone to call you this morning and then realized it must be about midnight there!)

1. Is the King Tut a cone or short spool? Put a cone on the back vertical spool holder, but the short spool should be horizontal.

2. Pass the thread under the batting in your first thread guide above the spool. The batting should put light pressure on the thread.

3. Pass the thread through one hole on the first 3-hole thread guide.

4. Check the angle of the next three-hole thread guide. It should run from 8:00 to 2:00 when looking at it from the side of the machine. Use the running stitch you already tried. If that doesn't work, try skipping all but the last hole.

5. Check the spring on the tension mechanism that you removed. Does it have some resistance when you pull it down? Does it rebound properly? Is it rubbing on the machine's side at all? Is the bottom "U-shaped" curve situated at 11:00?

6. Pass the thread through the tension disks. Make sure it is all the way between the disks. Bring the thread over the spring, then under the "shepherd's hook" thread guide. Continue through the pick up lever and final two pigtail thread guides.

7. Pull the thread through the needle and tug on the end, watching the spring by the tension disks. Does the spring pull down to about 8:00 and then re-set?

8. Does the needle flex greatly when you pull on the thread tail? You should feel some resistance, but not severe drag.

Now move on to the bobbin. So Fine should work with King Tut, as well as pre-wound bobbins or Bottom Line. However, if you can't get enough pressure on the So Fine to pull the Tut down, try Bottom Line.

1. Remove the bobbin and study the backlash spring inside the case. Are the two little "fingers" still pointing up somewhat and applying pressure to the bobbin?

2. Remove any lint inside the case, even removing the backlash spring if necessary. Replace it by aligning the U-shape with the U in the case, and the tiny outer tabs with the slots in the case (you might need to coax it with a screwdriver back into the slots).

3. Check for lint build-up under the outer tension finger (the flat piece of metal wrapped around the outside of the case where the thread passes under before exiting the case. Use a small straight pin and slide it under the finger, parallel to the bobbin case. Gently slide it toward the hole where the thread exits, being careful not to put too much upward pressure on the finger so that it doesn't bend out of shape. (You can also "floss" under the finger by passing a threaded needle under the finger and out the other side, then sliding the thread tail toward the hole.)

4. Review the bobbin itself. Is it round or misshapen? When inserted into the case, does it spin smoothly? Is it spinning clockwise?

5. Now check its "drop". In theory, if it is pulled up to the top, then either the top thread tension needs to be loosened, OR the bobbin thread needs to be tightened. Since your top thread is not forming a tight stitch, then you first want to tighten up the top, and THEN tighten up the bobbin so it's pulling a little harder.

6. Towa gauges and estimated drop tests are great for giving you a starting point, but remember that they still can't account for the other variables each quilt presents, whether it be fabric not washed, batting in upside down, bulky seams, etc.

7. Try a different bobbin case. Do you have the same results?

Sometimes you have to ignore what "should be" and do "whatever works." Case in point...for my machine to stitch well with cotton thread in the bobbin, my bobbin thread has almost no tension. Yes, the case would zing to the floor. Yes, that goes against common sense and Towa gauge advice. But that's what works.

Whenever I answer tech calls regarding tension, we start back at the beginning. You can approach the solution from two angles. Either loosen up BOTH the top and bobbin until the stitching is horrible, and start tightening up the top and bobbin a smidgeon at a time, or tighten up both until the thread breaks and then start backing off on tension.

I find it's much easier to come up from the "loose" side of things than to remove just enough pressure so the thread isn't breaking.

Finally, analyze the quilt itself. Is the fabric an issue? Batiks and other tightly woven fabrics are tough to use King Tut on. Was the fabric washed or is it stiff with sizing? How about the backing? Is it loaded correctly. Is the batting loaded "right side up?"

The bad news is that sometimes, no matter what you do, the tension will not balance in certain directions or areas...and it can be because of the physics of the machine (how the hook and needle meet), the quilt sandwich, the thread, the humidity or lack of it, needle flex, or just plain karma (or lack thereof:)).

While I'm used to quilters having a little difficulty with King Tut, I'm a little concerned that you can't get a stitch you like with any other thread as well. Timing doesn't usually affect tension, but we can certainly take a look at it if we can't find a solution by adjusting the top or bobbin case.

Last, a picture or two is worth a thousand words. Can you post a photo of the top and bottom areas so I can see what's going on, or send me a photo by email so I can help?

What I really need is someone to invent a teleporter so I can just "beam myself" to your studio and take a look in person!

We'll get it figured out...

[calicokat]

Thanks for the detailed list Dawn! I too am fighting tension issues with my Gammill right now. First time in almost two years, so for that I'm grateful -- but still, it's frustrating.

I've printed your response to take with me when I leave work and I'll start with #1 and work my way down :0)