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Hi everybody:

I have just read about a true story concerning patterns. If a person buys a pattern. Why does that person have to have copyrights? Seems to me that if they do not want that pattern used or put on another quilt that they did not make, that they should not sell these patterns. Thats like puchasing a pattern to make a top that if you buy it that should give you the right to make that topper or quilting pattern. Weather it be in books or sold as kits. If you don't want it used on others quilts , Why sell them. You want to sell to make money but if purchaser buys and makes something it is against the law. You can not have it both ways. If our ancestors did that then I guess we would not have so many wonderful quilts to enjoy or coverup with. This is going too far. Something has to be done to stop it. Do not put patterns out there for sale if you don't intend to have people enjoy and use to make a quilt. That I think if a rip off to people that purchase them. That also includes any design or pattern that people buy from anything. Where do we get our inspiration from, Past , present, future? Would like to hear from you and hear what your solution is. I am not intentionally trying to make anyone mad, but I to hear solutions and opinions to solve this issue. Nita

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Guest Linda S

You need to pay attention to the copyright of the pattern you buy. Some will explicitly say that you may make X number of quilts, purses, bags, etc., for resale. If they don't you might want to reconsider. For example. I have a pattern for Humbug Bags. I believe it says that you may make up to 8 bags a year for resale. The darn things are so cute and useful, you'd like to make more, but better not sell them. After all, the person who designed them does need to make some money.

Linda

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I understand that. So why do they sell these , opps except to make their Money but why should a customer buy when they can not make and show any one. What is the use of buying and can not use it. Waste of money and time. I heard of a person bought a design to use on her quilt top and was in a show and person that designed the pattern wanted to sue her for using it. Counter productive and confusing. Nita

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There is a difference between buying a pattern for personal use and buying a pattern in order to make money. Most copyrights (not all) are intended to prevent the purchaser from making money on someone elses product or idea. This seems pretty reasonable to me.

If I buy a pattern and make the item for myself, or as a gift, no big deal. If I buy a pattern and make 50 to sell, I'm selling those items as if they were my idea and I'm keeping all the proceeds. Not cool. In the case of Humbug bags, I guess the designer figures that if you are only making 8 per year then you aren't making a living off of her idea.

In the case of pantos, you just need to be careful that you are purchasing the "right" to use it on customer quilts and that there isn't any limit. I simply don't buy any that have limitations so I don't have to worry about it. Anyway, for whatever it's worth, that's my take on the copyright issue.

Happy Quilting,

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I think it would be helpful to know who allows a person to use or not use her/his patterns. A list would be helpful and if we know in advance whose patterns we could not use for customers we wouldn't buy them. I'm not saying boycott these designers, I'm just asking to be informed prior to a purchase. Maybe if these designers had fewer sales directly related to their copyright restrictions they'd get the message that little minions like me are not mass producing but just trying to stay afloat. I ran into the same thing when I was making wood craft products. It wasn't long and the exclusive designers were selling to the Chinese mass producers. Money does talk!!

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They should put thier "usage permisions" on the outside of the pattern to see before you purchase. But the problem I see is that you make a quilt from a pattern and that pattern maker technically has a legal say over that quilt ie.. whether you can post a picture of it in webshots or this forum, show it a craft fair or even the ultimate sale, giving or donation of the quilt.

There are many gray areas to copyrights and not enough rules have been written about the use of patterns because technically the making the item is in itself a copyright violation.

I don't think I should have to ask permission on how I can use an item I make from a pattern as long as I am not copying that pattern or calling it my own.

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Marie:

I think the idea of some kind of list of panto and pattern designers that allow reproduction and use for customer quilts is a great idea.

I was recently looking at some of the Willowleaf(?) or Willowcreek(?) panto patterns, but I haven't ordered anything because this discussion came up.

I'd like to know what I can use and what I can't use on customer quilts. I haven't done the pantos and patterns page on the website because I don't want to infringe on anybody's rights. The whole situation has gotten very complicated.

I learned to quilt from my grandmother, using cereal box templates. The patterns were things she had learned from her mother. I'm sure there was no concern over copyrights and pattern reproductions back then.

Is it because people are sue happy now-adays? I understand that they want to make money, but when they sell the pattern they are making their money. We, as quilters, should be able to do with it what we wish.

Just my two cents worth.

Teresa

www.chickenscratchquilting.com

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Teresa........I'm one of the designers for Willowleafstudio.com (Desert Threads) Our copyright says that you can use our patterns on as many quilts as you want.......however........you may not loan them out, sell them (if you end up not likeing them) give them away, or alter them in any way........enlarge or reduce. Our creativity went into the making of these patterns and we hope that everyone likes them the way they are.

As a quilt pattern designer, I am in this to create and sell my patterns. Hopefully there will be a profit from my designs. I am not making a profit however if a customer makes quilts to profit off them. You can make my quilts as gifts tho. It is my creativity, my talent etc that went into the design of these patterns.........not the customer. If that customer wants to make a quilt for auction or charity, they need to contact me for permission to make that quilt and I want to be named as the designer of that pattern. Other than that, I have no problem with someone using my designs..........as long as I am named as the designer. You may get more or better info from Judy L as she also designs and markets her own patterns.

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I AM LARRY WHO CAME UP WITH THE DESIGN OF THE LARRY LINER . IT IS FOR ANY ONE TO USE ..BUT I WAS THE ONE WHO THOUGH OF IT AND I DONT WANT ANY ONE TO COPY IT, SO THAT THEY CAN MAKE MONEY ON IT!!!!! If that sounds cold then so be it!! I will sell it to any one to sell.. use.. or what ever they want to do ...but you may not reproduce it...Or claim it as your idea!!That is why they have made LAWS of copy rights.. and patten LAWS to protect any one from stealling a idea that you may have come up with.

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I think the topic was only about the end product not the physical pattern itself, everyones ideas and creativity should be protected. but I want to know the policies before I buy a pattern so I can adbide by the designers wishes these things need to be put on the cover since it varies from designer to designer.

I don't want anyone having rights to my quilt. I will use only patterns that allow me to do what I want with the end product, whether thats giving the quilt to charity or selling it at my yard sale. Of course we want designers to make money otherwise there will be no new designs. I always new that you could not by a pattern and make a bunch of copies but one lady actually wants you to ask permission to make a quilt now does that make sense? after buying a pattern?

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Wow! Very interesting...... I agree with Susan (above) and also with Sharon

- I want the designers to make their fair share of the profit - I buy patterns

and such - but I have had to make changes as to size of blocks and quilts -

but I always give credit where it is due. I don't then say it was "my idea".

If I pay for this pattern, and all of the fabric and quilt it myself, can I not

do with it then as I please? I can understand if there are photos taken and

such - but if you say "who" the designer is...... even problems showing

photos here, on this forum? Why? That is how we learn and show each

other our work......hmmmm....

I look forward to reading more on this issue.

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Willow Leaf studios does allow you to place the picture/image of the panto on your website (look in the FAQ section on the willow Leaf studio web site) they even have the images available on a cd to make it easier to add it to the longarmers site of patterns available to choose from. Just make sure when you set up the page that you give recongition to the designer and use the the proper names of the patterns. Willow Leaf studios also states that the patterns can not be altered in any way from what you purchase from them but say you liked a specific pattern and it only comes in a 14" size and you have say a Liberty that only allows you to use up to a 12" size pattern...all you need to do is call willow leaf studios and request a special order in the size you require and for a slight upcharge they will accomodate you. This is why they are my most favorite patterns to buy...not only are they gorgeous designs but the people are so helpful.

Some designers like Keryn Emmereson and other Golden Thread designers state on their designs that you can reduce/enlarge their patterns to fit your needs.

Then there are some designers like Martingale & Co. who state that you can photo copy their patterns for personal use but if you are a longarmer than you can use their designs up to 10 times before you need to repurchase that design again to use for additional use.

Copy right laws were not always this complex in fact in the past there were alot of loopholes...like for instance in clothing design if you liked someone eles design all you neede to do to make it your own was to change a sleeve length or a neckline slightly and it was considered a new design that is all your own. But over the years the lawyers have been making it their life missons to close up these loopholes in the copy right laws which is why you are seeing these very tight restrictions on pattern copyrights.

The problem being with this though is that unless you are mass producing these designs for profit/ gain it is very hard to prove in a court of law that the quilter/consumer reproduce the design out of malice or misuse. Example the quilter in Canada that won a quilt competition in the local fair..yes she should have acknowledge the designer of the pattern she used if she was placing the quilt in a competition (it also should have been a requirement in the rules for the all designs not original to be listed on the entry form for the competition of the fair) but beyond that the quilter did not abuse the copyright by selling the design and she never said that it was her original design there for the designer does not have a good chance winning this case in court...not to mention it would have given her a bad rep if she would have taken an average quilter to court over this.

Joann

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O.K. I'm now completely confused... Say I make an Irish chain quilt and add a seminole border. Then I quilt the inside portion with a panto and use a stencil for the border. The I enter it in the county fair... How does anyone know if that is an Eleanor Burns Irish Chain (current copyright)or a Ruby McKim Irish Chain (public domain) also, do I have to get perission from the Seminole Nation or from the 3 people who wrote books on Seminole piecing (all of which I read and took ideas and techniques from) ??? And then there are the two types of quilting. By the time I get all the permission and get it on the label, I won't need a quilt back, it will look like the credits for a Pixar movie :D.

Don't get me wrong, I believe in the copyright laws. But almost everyone interprets a pattern when the make a quilt. Either the fabric chioces or the value placement... Shouldn't the pattern copyrights have more to do with the instructions i.e. "cut this many squares and sew them together like this..." than with "this is a my dresdan plate quilt so it's my design" This must get really sticky with the fabric companies and the designs that are specific to a fabric collection.

Thanks for listening and I'll get off my soap-box now. It's just that I'm thinking of entering my first quilt show and this is just one more thing to get nerved-up (as they say here) about.

Leslie

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I went on another thread regarding this matter, so will bring it up here as well. This has more to do with piecing patterns.

If a friend sees a quilt in a quilting magazine like McCalls Quilting and would like me to make it for her am I not allowed to charge her for just one quilt? I don't do it that often, but when I do do it, I usually just charge for fabric, etc. I did donate a quilt to a charity one time, but got permission from the people whose copyright design was on the fabric. I designed the quilt myself.

I guess I have always been aware of copyrights, but since I've never sold anything in large quantities I never thought about it too much. I rarely make the quilt exactly like the picture....sometimes out of laziness I must admit. Ha.

I e-mailed McCalls last night to get their take on using patterns from their magazine. Hopefully I will hear something. I looked through the magazine and I could not find anything about copyrights. I'm guessing it might be different than the patterns you purchase.

I have made several baby quilts using the Jewel Box pattern, but they all seem to be a little different because of the borders. These were all given as gifts. Is that wrong? Who was the original designer of the Jewel Box pattern?

I guess my basic question is, can I give quilts as a gift even if they are from a pattern in a book or one that I purchased. It most likely would be a one-time gift (except for the Jewel Box).

Sorry for rambling on, but this whole thing seems to be confusing.

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Just received this e-mail from McCalls...

Hi, Diane!

We've had many questions the past few weeks regarding copyright laws.

If your friend asks you to make a quilt she saw in one of our magazines, I

don't see why you can't do that and charge for your time and materials. We

would appreciate having the magazine name, issue and the designer's name on

the quilt label somewhere.

If you make a quilt as a Mother's Day gift, for example, yes, it's perfectly

ok to do that. Or if you want a quilt to send off to college with one of

your children, of course it's ok. Isn't that why we make quilts - to share

with our family and friends?

If you make several quilts to sell for your own profit, then NO. If you

make a quilt, claim it is your pattern/design when it is really from a

magazine or book, then NO. Both are a violation of copyright.

You can make a quilt as a group to use in humanitarian related efforts. It

can be sold through an auction, raffled, or whatever means your state

government allows, as long as you credit the magazine, issue, and designer

on a label somewhere on the quilt.

You can teach a class using the pattern as long as each student has their

own copy of the magazine.... meaning you cannot copy it or duplicate it in

any way. This changes if the issue is no longer available for purchase as a

back issue. You then have to go through gaining permission from us and the

designer. There is a limit on the number of copies and who provides those

copies. At this point there is always a chance you'd get a "no" answer.

Usually that doesn't happen with our designers, but it has.

These are the rules we follow, other magazines may view things differently.

Please contact me again if you would like further clarification or have

other questions. I'll do my best to answer them.

Sincerely,

Tricia Camp

Editorial Assistant

I know this doesn't have anything to do with pantos, but just wanted to share what I found out about piecing patterns, at least as far as magazine patterns.

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I think everyone is getting a little paronoid about these copyright laws don't try to read more into them than what it says on the pattern. If it dosen't list the specifics on the pattern than don't worry about it if there is no mention of a copy right than don't worry about it either. Basically don't go looking for trouble that may not even be there and these laws are changing on a yearly basis so no one will ever have a full grasp on the situation.

If you are the average quilter that makes a quilt for family and friends who may or may not get reimbursed for your effort of putting the quilt together for the friend/family member don't stress over this...it won't apply to you. If you are making say multiple quilts to sell on E-bay or in your business etc..for $ (cost of materials than doubled or tripled to get the final cost of sale) than you need to be aware of all of the copyrights of the patterns/materials you plan on using and get the appropriate permissions etc..

If you are still worried, than contact a copyright laywer & have them go over the particulars of the one or two copy rights you are questioning, remember there are many versions of copy rights out there like there are different people in the world so there is no 1 fits all answer that will cover all of the copy rights out there in the world.

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Originally posted by mrsbishwit

If it dosen't list the specifics on the pattern than don't worry about it if there is no mention of a copy right than don't worry about it either.

I have a differing opinion. This is directly from the U. S. Copyright Office webpage: Copyright protection subsists from the time the work is created in fixed form. The copyright in the work of authorship immediately becomes the property of the author who created the work. Only the author or those deriving their rights through the author can rightfully claim copyright.

Even if the designer/author doesn't specifically list her rules/restrictions, she is entitled to all the protection accorded under the copyright laws.

Originally posted by mrsbishwitIf you are the average quilter that makes a quilt for family and friends who may or may not get reimbursed for your effort of putting the quilt together for the friend/family member don't stress over this...it won't apply to you.

It will apply to you if you intend to enter your quilt in a show and could even apply if you want to share a picture of your quilt on the internet.

It would be a good idea to at least spend some amount of time reading this webpage - http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ1.html

I agree that it leaves more questions than answers and attorneys disagree on much of the copyright law but it does apply to each and every one of us who uses a work created by someone else.

I am not one of those designers who cares to police the quilt world. But if I were to say I don't care if someone sells quilts made from my designs, that would mean that you could sell one or two or ten and Joe Blow Bedding Company could make and sell 1 million of them if they chose to do so.

I don't think designers are necessarily trying to be picky or limiting but trying to protect themselves. I agree some are going too far with their restrictions.

For some reasons, the copyright feeding frenzy is going at full speed right now. It will slow down and then in a few months, surface again.

My suggestion is to read through that goverment page I mentioned above. If you're in doubt as to whether your intended use of a pattern is going to be a problem, contact the designer before purchasing the pattern. Most are very happy to be asked for clarification and are thrilled you are using their patterns.

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Guest Linda S

Yep! Copyright can be a tricky thing. Always read the fine print and, when in doubt, check with the copyright holder. Think of it this way. You design a quilt (whether you're selling the pattern or just having it hung in a show), and a year later, you see your quilt pattern hanging in a major show with a ribbon on it, and you look at the tag and it says, 'designed and pieced by ___, quilted by _____' and you know that's YOUR PATTERN! :( How would you feel? It's always best to give credit where credit is due.

I'm working on a wholecloth where I got the idea from an art book. It was very difficult to track down the publishers (the author has been dead for about a hundred years, but it's a new edition with a forward by a contemporary author and it is COPYRIGHTED!), but I did finally find them in Germany and get permission to use the design. Never, ever claim something as your own when it isn't! :)

Linda

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But, Linda didn't they claim something that was not theirs? if the original author is dead and the original quilt was made over 100 years? you can't just reprint something and claim it your own take Brenda of the Dear Jane book the concept and wording of Dear Jane and Baby Janes are hers but Janes Stickles quilt is free for anyone to copy! She can't claim it as hers because she wrote a book Just her book artwork and creativity of the Dear Jane concept is hers to claim.

and how many times do you think the same designs have been created with out being stolen afterall there are 300 hundred years of creativity and millions of quilters design concepts have to cross

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If a designer does not want us to use their design, I think the safest protection they have is to NOT OFFER IT FOR SALE!!!! It is unfair to Take our money and then not allow us to make a quilt and enter it into a quilt show. I agree that a design credit should be given, but a small cash prize to the person who actually pieced and entered the quilt in the show should not have to be shared with a designer - they got their cut when the piecer PAID for the pattern.

As I said before, I am totally against photocopying patterns, and I don't think it would be right for a big manufacturer to buy a pattern and then mass produce quilts to be sold at Pottery Barn (or anywhere). But going after us small fish is just wrong. It is sounding like the only safe thing to do is for us all to create our own designs. Then designers won't have anything to sue us over.

I am not against designers. I am just against the idea that a person could sell something to someone and then restrict the buyer from utilizing what they just sold them. It is just ridiculous.

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http://www.sylvias-studio.com/copyright_for_quilters_crafters.htm

This is an article that pertains to copyright as it relates to quilters.

I'm not trying to be disagreeable and I have the same feelings as many of you about whether it's ok to purchase a pattern and then make and enter a quilt made from the pattern without having to get permission. At some point I believe designers are hurting their own cause but the point I want to make is that it doesn't really matter what you or I think is fair and reasonable . . the copyright owner of each design has a whole lot of power to limit what we can do with his/her designs.

If you purchase a pattern that simply has the copyright symbol on it and no other limitations/restrictions specifically stated, that pattern still has all the same limits/restrictions as the copyright law allows.

The only way you are going to be ok to do whatever you please with what you make is to design it yourself . . totally from the beginning. Derivative works is still a copyright violation. You also can seek to obtain permission from the copyright owner but do you ask to enter the quilt in one show, a dozen shows, any show for the next 5 years.

It's crazy and I know the law is the law and it doesn't matter what I think but it makes no sense to me why anyone would buy a pattern for about $8, spend $200 on fabric, $50 on backing, $25 on batting, maybe $200 - $500 to have it machine quilted and then be told they can't sell it or they can't enter it in a show and if they do, they must share the prize winnings.

I fully understand and agree that patterns should not be copied and handed out freely and I understand and agree that mass producing is wrong. But again . . the law and designers don't give a flip what I understand or how much I agree/disagree with the rules.

If you don't have Electric Quilt . . go to their website today and buy it! :)

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I've taken much the same view as Judy, I try to avoid using any patterns other people have made. I have seen enough over restrictive notices to last forever. So I have a photographer who I pay to take pictures for me to use as source material for my quilts. The geometric designs I draw myself either on paper or in EQ. It just isn't worth getting involved with other peoples patterns.

The only exception I make to the rule is a few panto that say I can use them on other peoples quilts. I'd rather draw my own desing than pay extra to have a stock item resized for me. I used to really believe in copyright laws but it seems they are being stretched a long way from their original intent, which was to reward and encourage people to invent things to improve the world for everyone.

Ferret

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