Pattern purchases

[Carolyn]

I've read the posts concerning infringement of copyrights with some interest. While it is, undoubtedly, a topic of interest to those that make quilts for personal use and/or in the course of business, does anyone know if there are (or have been) any cases before the courts, in their particular states or provinces, regarding copyright violation?

I agree with the concept of copyright laws in principle; just as longarmers derive their income from quilting, designers derive their income from designing patterns. However, where [i believe] the problem lies, in determining whether there may be any infringement of pattern usage, is in the ambiguity of the copyright laws. If a designer simply uses the copyright trademark (it's much simpler in many cases), then they can decide what is acceptable and what isn't (or, quite simply, whether they'll sue or not).

If all designers were required to specify any limits and/or restrictions on their designs/patterns, with these limits clearly stated on the face of the product, consumers would have the option of not purchasing patterns from that particular designer if they weren't comfortable with the restrictions.

I believe there needs to be a simplification of the language/rules concerning copyright laws in this particular area. . .but, in the meantime. . .are there any patent/trademark lawyers out there who happen to quilt?

Carolyn

[MarieBrewer]

Ferret, please tell me which pantos say they can be used on other peoples quilts. I think that's the bottom line in this discussion. thanks

[bonbon]

Okay, I'm thoroughly confused now. So, simply, if I use a panto that someone else designed, I can still use it on customers quilts, right?

Do I have to disclose the panto designer's name to the customer even if the quilt is to be used only for personal use, not displayed at a show or commercial use?

[mrsbishwit]

Yes you can use the pantos on customer quilts (the panto designers are aware that most people that buy their patterns are running a long arm quilt business...). Read the copy right info printed on the individual pantos for the particulars for any given panto. You should be letting your customers know the name and designer of the panto whether they are entering it in quilt shows or even it is for their own use...this is just common curtisy in case they are asked what pattern the design is etc... and so they are aware that it is not your own original design.

Joann

[Susanri]

Not all pantos can be used on customers quilts, the Quiltmaker books insists that the customer buy thier own copy there are a handfull who share this concept. think about it if there are under 100,000 longarmers but there are millions of quilters which customer base do you want to sell to..

[busybee]

Hi Everybody

I just returned from MQS show. To my surprise, of all the input to this subject. I am amazed to the responsed to copyrights. My biggest complaints are: If I buy a longarm and it is a big price to buy these machines , then how are we suppose to make money?? Pattern designers make money off us(longarmers). These people that are designing these patterns and wanting to sell the patterns best be putting their copyrights on the pattern that they designed. That means to me copying is prohibited. But using these to quilting on a quilt. Kinda hard to put a quilt top together without quilting it. That means if they sell theses patterns and they are trying to sell them to machine quilters, even at Machine Quilting Shows, then that is "calling the kettle black". They know that machine quilters are buying these patterns, thats why they started selling them, because they knew that longarmers wanted patterns to use and they make money on the sale of them. And, who else are going to buy them so much, da, machine quilters. If that is the case then longarmers are the ones that suffer because of this copyright law. Copyright law on quilting patterns needs to be seriously updated to be more detailed. I talked to IMQS about this as a subject to cover in a magazine issue to update everybody. They thought that would be a great topic for their lawyers to check on. Hope this happens so there would be an answer to some of these questions and concerns. Nita

[JudyL]

Nita, it really isn't as ominous as it sounds when you first begin digesting it all. Many pantograph designers are fine with us using their patterns on customer quilts. I've mentioned Jodi Beamish at Willow Leaf Studios. All you need to do is be aware of each designer's copyright restrictions. If the only pantos I could ever use again were Jodi's, I wouldn't fret. But, there are plenty others. I think Sharon Spingler on here said her pantos are available through Willow Leaf and she has no restrictions on them.

Instead of getting upset about it, just contact the designer whose patterns you want to use. If they are ok with it, then you don't have to worry. If they are not, don't buy their designs.

Knowledge is power. Just know that copyright exists and use it to your advantage. Don't assume that you can use everything you buy for customer quilts.

Legal opinions have been rendered over and over on this and they seem to basically hold that the copyright owner has lots of power over what can be done with their designs.

It isn't something we can fight. That's just how it is!

Further, pantographs are not the only way to quilt! For years I didn't do pantos at all.

The copyright issue is something about which I want to be aware and I want to know more but I do not lose any sleep over it!

[busybee]

Judy

I realize that is a program within the system on Longarmer. But, this is a gray area that does need to be addressed by professionals. As longarmers are usually in business to make money on quilting. It is in the best interest that everybody should be aware of. We machine quilters are just part of the process of a quilt and we depend on designs, mostly to finish the quilting part for our customer as do the designers that sell designs for profit. If there wasn't so much , jump in the band wagon to "sue" it would not be a issue. Nor would we have so many patterns that we use now from hand quilters and piecers. This has got out of hand and I don't cry over it I just let people know that there is a problem with the veg law surrounding this copyright law. You may take it as you please, but still a very gray area. Inquiring minds want to know. Nita

[annlittle1]

This is a confusing and difficult subject. I've read both of the web pages that Judy L. suggested. I understand why I can't xerox a copy of a designer's work and give it or sell it to someone else. I understand why I can't purchase a copy of the design and use it for mass production. In both cases the designer is taking a monetary loss. I also understand that I can't claim credit for someone elses design. That would be a loss for the designer,also.

I recently purchased from Columbia River Quilts two pattern books by the same designer. They were described as "continuous line" and for the "long arm or short arm" quilter. When I received them I noted that there was a copyright statement on the front that stated the original purchaser could copy, re-size and reprint the designs, but that the designs were intended for personal use only unless you contacted the designer and received her permission. I feel as if I have wasted $50.00 on two pattern books that I can't use on customer quilts unless I take the time to contact the designer and get/purchase her permission. I wouldn't have purchased the books if I had known that. I presume that I can recoup some of my money by selling the books on eBay, (or can I?) but the second buyer can't copy, re-size or reprint the designs. Does that mean that the second buyer can't use the designs on a quilt? According to Sharon Spingler's email near the beginning of this discussion, if it was her pattern books I couldn't sell them or even give them away. Why? She has been paid for her designs, but I have not made use of them. How is Sharon hurt if I sell or give the copies that I purchased to someone else?

I understand that I need to give credit to the designer if I use her work on a quilt that I am entering in a show. However, I was unaware that I had to get the designer's permission to enter the quilt in a show.

Can I use Sharon's designs in my quilt and then put a picture of it in my gallery on Webshots to show my quilting ability Do I need Sharon's permission? It certainly sounds like it.

The pattern books that I discussed above had designs of feathers, apples, cherries, and hearts. These are fairly common design themes in quilting. I had already done similar designs on quilts without ever seeing her books. Sherrie Rogers recently showed pictures of a yellow quilt with roses embroidered on upholstery fabrics. In her commentary she stated that the small designs she quilted in the background were "Sherrie's Swirls" and were copyrighted. The pictures weren't really close up, but to me "Sherries Swirls" looked a lot like curly McTavishing. What made them unique enough to copyright? (Sherrie, I apologize if I am misquoting you. The quilt was gorgeous and my drooling may have affected my eyesight and memory!) My point is did I violate copyright if I did a very similar feather design before I ever saw these pattern books that I discussed above?

At the moment I'm terrified to quilt anything on a customer's quilt other than SID. I do not want to violate a designer's copyright, but surely the purchaser of a design has some rights! Or do we? How can we get anything done if we must be constantly requesting permission from the designer. Shouldn't that permission be given with purchase? A list of designer's and their copyrights would sure be helpful. Or maybe I should follow Judy L's lead and only use my own designs. I wonder how far I can go in this business using stick figures

If I've offended anybody, please forgive me. That wasn't my intention. Just wanted to express my frustration with this subject.

Phyllis Hughes

Liberty

Oklahoma City

[JudyL]

Phyllis: I agree with you about the stick figures but after all this copyright talk, I'm thinking someone had to be the first person to do a stick figure and now they hold the copyright and I'll go to jail for making a stick figure!

I do think we all need clarification. My policy at the current time will be to write each designer for whose stencils/designs I currently have and make sure I know their "acceptable use" policy. I am going to be very careful about whose designs I purchase in the future.

There are designers (and I'm not speaking for Sharon because I do not know her policy) who have the "no resale" policy and my understanding is that is legal. The reason behind that is that I cannot buy a book, use it to my advantage, learn the techniques, and when I'm finished, I sell it and thereby, the copyright holder lost money.

According to the attorney I spoke with, ONLY the original copyright holder is entitled to make $$ from the design and only the original copyright holder is entitled to show the design. Many copyright owners grant permissions for various uses of their designs. These are the examples he and I discussed.

Suppose I write a book, Quilter B writes a book and Quilter C writes a book. I can say that you can do anything with my designs that you want to do. You can copy them, you can resize them, you can use them on customer quilts. You just can't reprint the book and sell it as your own. This is pretty much how I would like to see copyright anyway.

Quilter B says you can use her designs on 10 quilts. You must keep a list of whose quilts you used the design on and you can enter any quilt using her designs in a quilt show and if it wins, the prize money is yours to keep.

Quilter C says you can use her designs on your own quilts only and if you enter the quilt in a show, and it wins, you must give her 20% of the winnings. You cannot ever sell the book when you're finished with it . . she has a no resale policy.

Those are all acceptable use interpretations of the copyright and because the author is the copyright owner, she can set her own acceptable use policy.

So, having an attorney tell us what we can do and what we can't do doesn't always work because each author/designer may have her own policy.

I don't understand it all. I am not an attorney. I may have all the above information completely messed up from what I think I was told . . so don't count on anything I said as being true!

And, this is my last post on copyright. I'm tired of even thinking about it!!

[9patch]

I agree that the thing to do is to, now that we know, ask about the 'use' policy and refrain from buying the patterns that are essentially unfriendly to longarmers who are in the business of quilting for money.

I have checked the copyrights on the books that I already have. Diana Phillips gives permission "to the purchaser to use the designs of like ness therof on any non-mass produced quilts. Neither Golden Threads' catalog nor recent pantographs that I bought make any mention of any copyright info. Darlene Epp's copyright notice in her Pocket Guilde says, in part: "Please do not copy and sell, or give away, or trade these booklets or designs." In the rest of the notice she seems to be more concerned with actually copying or trading the patterns or the books, rather than in how the longarmer, who purchases the books, uses the patterns. Although....how are we to know that is true?

Linda/9patch

[9patch]

One more thing....maybe two.

One of the first quilts I did was a Christmas quilt. I quilted stars, linked with a loopy meander. I had no books. I scribbled this myself. In the border of my second quilt I did a holly leaf and berries. Again, I came up with this on my own. I have since seen both of these 'designs' in books.

Who "owns" them?

I should also mention that Darlene notes in her notice that some of the designs in her books are "popular, time-tested designs, many are original works." Again I think she is more concerned with the actual trading of the books, rather than the use of the designs.

Karen McTavish, as well as other well-known quilters whose books I own, state that they reserve all rights, but seem to be more concerned with the actual reproduction of the book or DVD rather than with the use of the designs that the books are trying to teach.

Linda/9patch

[snowquilter]

Hi,

I have a pattern company called 2 Much Fun! I don't do quilting patterns, but paper-piecing patterns, so I think my answer will pertain to the question. Our designs are copyright, but the only thing that I feel is important is this: if a person makes one of our quilts or wallhangings and enters it in a show---or sells it, that they acknowledge that it is our design and pattern, not theirs. Since our patterns are designed to encourage the adventuresome quilter and they may change the setting, or size or whatever, I would still hope they would credit the source.

I also hope that if their friend wants to make the same quilt, they will go out and buy our pattern which includes the paper foundations, rather than just copying their friend's foundation pieces, but I am not naive enough to think that never happens.

Snowquilter

[sammi]

Phyllis, I think if you go back and re-read Sharon's post you will see that she is discussing two different things.

Her first paragraph refers to her panto designs through Willowleaf, and the second paragraph refers to her Quilt patterns (KustomKwilts album in her webshots.) I have some of her Kustom Kwilts kids' patterns and LOVE them! I simply recognize her as the designer (this pattern is by Sharon Spingler) when I post them up to my webshots. She hasn't lopped my head off yet. LOL

http://community.webshots.com/user/sspingler

sammi

[Bekah]

I just browsed this site for a couple of weeks before registering cause I don't own a long arm YET. it is in the works, anyway, I had not thought of copyrights and found to my horror that some of the quilts that I had made up with the intention of selling are copyrighted so they will go to one of my 16 grandchildren or charity. I think our ancestors would be so very sad to see what has happened to what used to be shared. I understand though and will honor those with strict copyrights. Thanks to all of you for sharing all the information

[arlenef]

This subject has always intrigued me!

I understand that the pattern itself - the printed form is protected, but I still can't find ......... in all the searches I have done...... where it defines what the limitations are concerning items made from these instructions.

I often have trouble or I should say get annoyed...when I look at a very simple pattern - eg. 6" sqs set 4 x 5 with a 4" border....in a pkg with a very cute picture and a page of instructions with a claim of 'copyright' at the bottom. I'm not sure what they claim copyright for but surely it can't be the design?? When you see enough of this type of claim it becomes easy to ignore!

And there are those people who believe that all pattern makers are making a fortune and that they shouldn't have to (or don't want to) pay for anything if they can help it!

arlene f

[Grammie]

I have purchased Embroidery designs that mentioned copyright. I emailed the creator and received in writing permission to make as much as I wish for selling purposes. All that is asked of me is to give full credit for the design to the creator and thats simple to do. Another responded that I could could only make and sell three quilts using her designs. That's $!00.00 that I wasted. So I will not purchase any more of her products EVER without permission to use them and wear them out.

After Hundreds of dollars on designs that I intended to use I have STOPPED purchasing anything that I cannot use as much as I choose.

If its an issue or your worried about the Quilt POLICE or Copyright Police then don't spend your money on the product. Its a simple Solution. Manyd Designers are happy to give you permission to use their product for the right reasons.

Without permission to make as much as I want and sell as much as I want whether that's my intent at the time of purchase I simply will not purchase it.

An example would be the New Karen McTavish Book. She mentions that she wants you use her designs in whatever way you see fit. Of course you would NOT Copy and put them in your own Book as if to take credit, or sell copies of the patterns in a shop or internet but you can use them till your sick of them. That's a purchase WORTH YOUR TIME AND MONEY.

That's my take.

[9patch]

Hello,

I have checked with two websites from whom I have or want to purchase pantos. Both respond that I am free to use the pantos for quilts of my own or any, non-mass-produced, quilts that I do for friends or customers. It only makes sense that should these quilts ever be displayed or entered into a show then credit be given for the pattern or the panto quilting design.

Now that we know to ask first before purchasing, we will be sure to give our business to long-armer friendly designers. Money talks.

Linda/9patch.

[annlittle1]

I've been off line for a few days and just now reading these posts. Sorry if I am behind.

Judy L.--Stick figures have been found in cave drawings....surely the copyright has expired by now!!!!!I'm with you on the way you think copyrights should be. I think of patternbooks the same way I do of a car, furniture, or a book; i.e. I buy it, use it, and sometime in the future I may decide to toss it, give it away, or sell it. Of course, since I am a clutterbug, I don't do away with anything too often!

I guess I need to go through all my pantographs and books and see which designers I need to write for permission to use their designs on customer quilts. (Sigh.....) In the future I guess I better contact the designer before I order a pantograph or design book. I doubt if Columbia River Quilting or Kingsmen would want to take them back if I didn't like the copyright. Sure will slow down my purchases. My DH will think that is a good thing!

Phyllis Hughes

Oklahoma City

[sspingler]

I think this whole copyright thing has been overheated.

Let's try to put it into simple terms:

When you buy a pantograph, you can use it as many times as you wish on as many quilts as you wish. For my designs, whether you put it in a show, use on a customer quilt or whatever, if you give me credit or not I really don't care (although, it would be nice if it were entered and someone liked it and decided to buy one)

For my quilt patterns:

If you decide to buy my patterns, you can make as many as you would like for yourself, friends or family, that's fine........as long as you don't take orders for the quilts or mass produce them for sale. The only thing I ask is that if it's put into a show you give me credit for the original design. Again, if someone likes it they can buy the pattern from me themselves.

The reason for this is because once I get all my patterns printed, I plan on having a website to take orders for the patterns and for custom made quilts. That way, I am profiting from my own designs.......not the customer.

Of course, I am speaking for myself and not any other designer.

[9patch]

Hi,

I agree with Sharon. What she says makes sense and checks out with the pantograph suppliers/designers that I have used. I don't have many, so it was easy to check.

Linda/9patch

[Bekah]

Sharon, If a customer liked your quilt, bought the pattern and had me make it (I would make money by charging for my time), would that be a violation of the copyright in your opinion? I surely don't want to disrespect anyone who has the talent to design such lovely creations.

thanks for your help.

Bekah

[sspingler]

Bekah.......You can have 100 customers have you make quilts.......that's fine by me.........You aren't profiting by "selling" the quilt. What you are selling is your time. What I'm referring to is that you make 100 quilts and take them to a craft fair and make a million dollars. And I think 99% of the designers feel this way also.

[Bekah]

sharon, thank you for the clarification. It makes total sense. I guess I just am too honest. I have a hard time believing people would actually do that, but then I guess it does happen.

Little John is very precious bet he has turned into a handsome young one-year old

[Darlene Epp]

A point of view from the OTHER side of the fence.

Since my name & products have been brought up, let me ask you all what you would do, as the copyright owner of the Pocket Guides to Freehanding, in the following situation.

It has just come to my attention, and I now have proof in hand, that a well-known "domestic" machine quilting teacher that travels nationally, has built a class around 64!!! of my Pocket Guides to Freehanding designs. Some of them she has literally traced, and the rest she has rather poorly drawn. She has slightly changed SOME of the instructional wording, but has even included my arrowed diagramatic drawings. She is handing out 8 pages, 8 designs to each side of the page; sixty five designs, only one of which is not directly from my Pocket Guides. She is charging her students $5 for "her" handouts in addition to the fee she charges for the class!

What would YOU do? According to her website, she is booked up with teaching classes well into 2008 and I have no idea how long she's been teaching this class, since my books were first published in March of 2001. Quilts shops, quilt guilds, and quilt conferences have hired this woman, I'm sure with the belief that she is teaching her own original designs. She is NOT!

What would YOU do?