pumpkinpatchquilter Posted November 22, 2013 Report Share Posted November 22, 2013 The Husband and I are discussing our options, just to be sure we make the right decision for us. I have a 1999 APQS Ult. 1 that I bought this past January. I love it - except for one thing. I'm itching for stitch regulation. I can do a lot without it...but I want to do MORE!!! LOL So we talked about adding I/S and that's still an option. But if I were to upgrade to a Freedom or a Millie to get some of the other added features...how does that work? Could I trade in my machine head (do they even do that?) and purchase just the machine for my old aluminum frame? Can you trade in for a used machine head? I actually love my frame. I even looked into other brands just to compare...but truthfully, I'm pretty stuck on my APQS. The biggest obstacle for me is that I have to watch my pennies. Business is good but I can only take in so much work because I have three small kids at home and I have some personal quilting goals that I want to make sure I have time for...and we're on a budget. LOL Trying to figure out the most cost effective way to upgrade...and keep the quality of machine that I love! Another option would be to sell my machine and go new all together. I know you lose out on trade but I don't want to wait around to sell really. What would you do? Or DID you do...and why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeidiP Posted November 22, 2013 Report Share Posted November 22, 2013 Your quilting is awesome on your current machine, so it could be argued that upgrading isn't "necessary" but, many of the new features would be fun and helpful. Horizontal and vertical channel locks, Bliss, power advances, low bobbin thread warning, stitch regulator...there isn't a feature I would want to part with. Maybe a demo machine on a blissed table...? Confident you will make the right decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zora Posted November 22, 2013 Report Share Posted November 22, 2013 Have you checked with APQS to see if it is an option with them to trade in a machine of that age? If they won't accept it in trade, that helps narrow down the choices. These machines are workhorses, but at some point, it might not be the best thing to add options. Due to the age of the machine, if it were me, I would not make upgrades. I would probably opt for one of the Green Machines or certified used machines. I might also consider a newer, 1 to 2 year old machine that has as many options as possible, which appear frequently on the forum. I don't think you can reasonably expect to get much money out of your non stitch regulated machine with it being that old, but APQS can tell you what the value of the machine is. Start by calling them then you will know where to go from there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barbm Posted November 22, 2013 Report Share Posted November 22, 2013 Valerie, You'll probably spend the least amount of precious pennies by either adding IntelliStitch or trading you Ult for a new APQS head. However, you'll likely get better value for your pennies by selling your system and buying a new or used APQS system with APQS' perfect stitch regulator. I have "upgraded" my system twice since I started this ride in 2007, by selling my existing Millie system and buying a new setup. I have NO regrets! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pumpkinpatchquilter Posted November 22, 2013 Author Report Share Posted November 22, 2013 If money were no concern my dream machine would be a brand new blissed Millie!! I have power advance on my frame now so I'm happy with that, and I do well with edgeriders on my aluminum frame. I'd love needle up/down, speed/stitch control, regulation, and the new body!!! LOL Also the tensioner is newer and the controls are more convenient on a newer head...but I'm poor. LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemon Tree Tami Posted November 22, 2013 Report Share Posted November 22, 2013 Valerie, I think that you'll be much happier if you save your pennies a little longer so that you can get your dream of a blissed Millie. You're already doing so well on the older Ult 1 that it won't be a hardship to wait another year or two. Of course by then there may be more used blissed Millies on the market that would be perfect for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quiltingjoyful51 Posted November 22, 2013 Report Share Posted November 22, 2013 Give me a call. I have a 2007 Milli for sale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pumpkinpatchquilter Posted November 22, 2013 Author Report Share Posted November 22, 2013 I will give you a call Joyce. Tami I suppose that's true - and thank you!! I may not have any other choice but to wait! It's killing me this stopping and starting stuff though for tiny detail work and that's what I love. I could live without S/R but boy oh boy...I want it!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sewingpup Posted November 22, 2013 Report Share Posted November 22, 2013 umm....I just bought a new car.....the old one was 13 years old....started putting money into it.....after $2000 dollars....decided it was time to get a different and newer car....had just bought Lucey (used but a 2012) so started looking for my new car....used ones in the condition and mileage I wanted seemed to almost as much as a new car..with less warranty....so I ended up buying a new car....without all the bells and whistles...now...I am retired....and I figure that for both the car and the long arm, I have about 10-maybe 20 years left to quilt and drive....and I do it only for myself....I am happy with what I did...and I am on a budget too....now...if I were younger, I would look at how long I would use what I was buying, and what I was going to use it for....so if you are still planning on doing quilting for others for quite a while, I would think about what long arm would help you most and what you can afford....if a new long arm is easier to use and has some time saving features on it,....you can do more quilts in the same amount of time.....and also save on the wear and tear on your body.....so....I would save as much as I could and keep my eyes open for a newer long arm. APQS only sells their demos a few times a year .....and I would be ready! Oh...if I were younger...I really would have tried for a Freedom or Millie with all the bells and whistles...but I don't do quilting for others, don't do that many quilts in a year....and probably really don't have the years it takes to really be a great long arm quilter...so I didn't need to get a machine that was way beyond my skills...Lucey still knows more than me Lin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iquiltit Posted November 22, 2013 Report Share Posted November 22, 2013 I also just had to have SR. I bought a used Millie 2006 model. I love it but I never use the SR> lol> My used Millie was $10,500 and I drove from WVA to Wisconsin to get it. I also have fabric advance on mine.I only do pantos but am wanting to freehand eventually. Then with tiny patterns I may use SR.So I had a non SR Gammill and would have been just as well off but just had to have SR lol. Carol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimerickson Posted November 22, 2013 Report Share Posted November 22, 2013 Valerie: I have a 1997 Ult 2 I bought 3 1/2 years ago. Not too long after I bought "Zelda", I decided that I wanted a stitch regulated machine. Part of the reason I bought Zelda in the first place was that at the time I did not have the money to buy a more expensive machine. My option was to try and sell Zelda and buy another machine, or to have an Intellistitch stitch regulator installed on her. I decided to do the latter. I had already rebuilt the original table and liked how it worked. Coordinating a sale and purchase and having a machine to quilt the quilts I had coming in, presented a potential problem for me, so having someone come to my house and do the upgrade and having Zelda down only one day appealed to me. The other benefit was that I only needed to come up with $3200 which by that time I had accumulated. Who knows what I would have needed the other way? I am pleased with my decision. While I sometimes feel Zelda might be "wanting" here or there, I'm sure that whatever machine I might replace her with, I would also find "wanting" at times. You say you're happy with your table - no need to change there- You already have a 26" machine, so there would be little need to increase the size of the machine. I personally don't like the horizontal wheels, but you're happy with them, so no need to change there. From a durability stand point, a later model offers nothing over your Ult 1. If I were you, I would have an Intellistich Turbo CL installed and not look back. The extra ammenities you might get with a replacement machine, seem to come at a real premium cost. If you have the original APQS wheels on your machine, I would definately replace them with a set of after market wheels. But, unless you have identified a specific need that cannot be filled by the stitch regulator upgrade, why pay for "whistle and bells" you don't really need. That's my opinion. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmkeindl1 Posted November 22, 2013 Report Share Posted November 22, 2013 I can help you out by telling you what I've done - I recently bought a used Millennium from someone on this forum (drove 13 hours to get it, a couple hours to load it and had to spend the night somewhere). I had had an Ultimate I that we added Intelli stitch to 1 1/2 years ago (it was an early 1990's) we were facing the same exact things you are now! not enough money to buy up and thinking my machine was too old! My Ultimate I head was bought from someone on this forum too (nearly the same drive) about 4 1/2 years ago,and I'd loved it - these are the reasons we went with the IS at the time - the head on my Ult I had been "for a spa treatment" 2 years before I bought it and it hadn't been used a lot so the $3,000 for the IS was a lot more appealing to us. I LOVED the IS - but I thought I needed more features - channel locks, auto advance, an original laser (not the battery one I had added) and I wanted something smaller - the Ult I was 14 ft and my room was very tight. I found a much newer Millennium with every feature except the glide and the hydro-lift (sp). Now I sold my machine on this forum to a lovely lady who lived about 5 hours away (she came and got it the same as we picked up my last two). The Ult I's were going for about $3,500 so I added $3,000 to the price for the practically new IS and I think that price was fair for both of us! When they add the IS they give you a new motor - so I figure that put a lot more life into it! Now, I'm very happy with my 12 ft. Millennium but . . . I miss a couple things from the IS I never thought about. The IS has great basting stitches - 1/2" and 1" and I can't get those on the Millennium but you can hit down/up twice as you move every inch?! The IS is quieter - no beeping, and the dial on the IS is a knob that can be easily changed from RS to manual, and stitch length and speed from both sides by just turning it. The Millennium button has to be held in and pushed for each stitch per inch up or down?! And the auto fabric advance is slow to me- I guess so you can smooth your layers, but if I loosen the brake then my quilt back unrolls (operator error perhaps). Overall I'm very happy with my new machine, but if I'd known then what I know now - I might have tried harder to cut down my 14 ft. frame? But at this point, I will only buy a new one when I've saved the money directly from APQS. Wordy I'm sorry, but I was facing the same exact things you are and maybe my story will help you decide what is right for you. I was always told people couldn't believe my machine was manual but even though with practice I got pretty good at keeping my speed constant, I had a hard time with any "tools" boards, templates, pantos that had small tight lines - the RS is FANTASTIC for that purpose! GOOD LUCK! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnQuilts Posted November 22, 2013 Report Share Posted November 22, 2013 I agree with Jim. You could trade in your head for a new one (if they take an older one, and I assume you probably wouldn't get much on it), but the new machine may or may not go with your existing table. The other features of a Millie are nice, the channel locks are nice, and the single stitch button is nice, but certainly not near necessary. The stitch regulator is the most important in my mind, and you can get it separately without replacing the head. That would be my advice. (Jim, I also HATE the horizontal wheels!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merryjo2003 Posted November 22, 2013 Report Share Posted November 22, 2013 Actually, I never minded the horizontal wheels. When I went from edgeriders to the M&M wheels, I really loved my machine! I think I would trade in the head on a newer millie or freedom head. Then maybe several years from now, sell the system as a whole and upgrade to a new or used system that's 2 or 3 years old. A newer millie head and some M&M wheels will make you a happy camper! Of course, so would a new machine. Sometimes you just have to do what you can with the budget you have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shirleyl Posted November 22, 2013 Report Share Posted November 22, 2013 I have a 2002 Millenium and I love her, I like the mushroom handles and don't like the new handles. Probably just what I'm used to. I would link for an older head to put on your frame, or buy an older used system either privately or maybe APAS has taken one in on trade and would take your machine in trade. You would probably get more for your machine by selling it yourself. I have tried bliss, but I don't need it I'm perfectLy happy with what I have and have added quilt Path. If it was only stitch regulation you wanted I would add IS, but it sounds like your ready for a foes more bells and whistles. Shirley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quiltingbykc Posted November 23, 2013 Report Share Posted November 23, 2013 I have a 2001 Millennium with an Intelliquilter for sale for $20,000. The Intelliquilter has over 8,800 designs on it. The machine has been completely gone through by APQS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pumpkinpatchquilter Posted November 23, 2013 Author Report Share Posted November 23, 2013 Thank you so much to everyone who responded! It still seems as if for now, adding I/S is the most cost effective upgrade. I could always take out a loan for something new but I'm just somebody who doesn't like having that weight hanging over my head. I'd rather own it outright so if I decide I want to quit my quilting business tomorrow, or if something unexpected happens, I'm not stuck with a huge payment that I can't afford. I will probably soon replace my Edgerider wheels out, but other than that I am really comfortable with my machine as it is. Cathy you are right, I just HAVE to have stitch regulation! LOL I knew before I bought the machine it would be something I'd want...but for the price this was the best machine closest to me out there so I went for quality over bells and whistles. I think if I want to get a newer machine, the best option for me at this time is going to be to save up. I DO want Bliss at some point. My passion is in detail work - and I rarely if ever do pantos. So I think for my needs, that's an upgrade I'm going to appreciate. Another thing I just want to say about the age of a machine. I definitely like and appreciate some of the new bells and whistles that come with a new machine...but I'm seriously not one who's phobic about my machine being "old". I collect antique machines and have featherweights that are 70 years old that I piece regularly on...so if those machines are still running I think the potential for my long arm to run for a very long time is pretty high! LOL This machine will just have to last me a few years until I can get the features that I really want, and that suit my needs. And honestly...if it were to break down...I think I've had long enough to prove myself to Hubby that this is something I CAN do and it might just be the excuse he needs to let me spring for a new one! As my Hubby always reminds me - truly I'm grateful that I even have a long arm!! This was a dream I didn't think would come nearly so soon!!! I love my long arm!!! Thank you all so much!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pumpkinpatchquilter Posted November 23, 2013 Author Report Share Posted November 23, 2013 So here's another question maybe someone here can answer... The only gripe I really have about my APQS is some of the maintenance is a PITA and I kind of wish I could get out of that. But I sort of think a lot of that is due to it's age as I see they've made things a lot more convenient on the new machines. I do feel like it's a heavy duty quality machine. But I'm curious, what is the difference between a sealed machine and one like Gammil or APQS? I actually really liked Handi Quilters but was afraid they wouldn't run for a long time...especially if I was buying used. That was why I went with APQS...but what's the deal with that?? What is the difference? Is it the motor? Is our motor just more heavy duty then one of those machines? Innova is also sealed from what I've heard... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pumpkinpatchquilter Posted November 23, 2013 Author Report Share Posted November 23, 2013 I just gotta say for brand newbies (I'm still somewhat of a newbie!!!) out there reading....I LOVE MARCI!!!!! She gives the best advice and she really has great insight....she just PM'd me with some really great food for thought....SHE'S THE BEST I'm telling you!!!!!!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitepinesquilter Posted November 23, 2013 Report Share Posted November 23, 2013 Thanks for such a compliment, Val! As for the differences in machine brands: Apkwisses ( ) internal mechanics are metal and engineered at Carroll, IA. There's the answer. Look at your 70+ year old machines you use regularly - tip them back and look at your oiling points. There are no plastic or nylon gears or bushings there. Now tip back a newer domestic and note the relative lack of metal. The metal construction is the common denominator between these 70 year old running machines and an APQS machine as well as the hands on construction. Each are built singly to exacting standards. Love our machines :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimerickson Posted November 23, 2013 Report Share Posted November 23, 2013 Valerie: I don't know what you mean by "sealed system". Does HQ actually try and tell you you don't need to clean and oil their machines? If so, don't believe it. Even your domestic machines that "don't need oiling", DO. That's what the service people do to them when you bring them in. As for the differences, the electronics on the "second" line machines isn't as good as on the first line machines (APQS, Gammill, Innova, A-1, Nolting, and Prodigy). All stitch regulators aren't equal. As Cathy says, even the stitch regulators on the first line machines are different, and have different features. Owner support isn't nearly as good on the second line. Typically the tables and wheel systems don't perform nearly as well. I had a laser added to my machine when they installed the I/S. I think it cost $125, so even that isn't something you couldn't have on your Ult 1. I've done a bunch of modifications to my machine to improve it. (power lift on the table, electronic channel locks, M bobbin system, as well as reconfiguring the roller system) To me these changes weren't that difficult, but probably more than most long armers could handle. They were worth while because the Ult 2 machine is a worthy platform to build on. (there's really not much different in the mechantics of the new and old machines) A lot of people think that the uniform stitch length is the major feature of the stitch regulator. To me it wasn't. Being able to do the other things that the I/S allowed was what I really wanted. (motion driven start and stop being the most important). The Ult 2 did not have the needle up/down or single stitch function, and APQS would not add it to that model. I got so weary of turning the handwheel every time I started new stitching. The I/S solved that problem. Like the old Singer machines, these "old" APQS machines are built to go and go. They're industrial, which means run 24/7. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meg Posted November 23, 2013 Report Share Posted November 23, 2013 I'm pretty sure a sealed machine means just that...it's sealed. That doesn't mean there is no maintenance. The maintenance is the same on any longarm. In many cases, it does mean that they can't just send you a part that needs replacing for you to install. You have to return the head to the factory or pay for a service call. That's my understanding of what a sealed machine means. So here's another question maybe someone here can answer... The only gripe I really have about my APQS is some of the maintenance is a PITA and I kind of wish I could get out of that. But I sort of think a lot of that is due to it's age as I see they've made things a lot more convenient on the new machines. I do feel like it's a heavy duty quality machine. But I'm curious, what is the difference between a sealed machine and one like Gammil or APQS? I actually really liked Handi Quilters but was afraid they wouldn't run for a long time...especially if I was buying used. That was why I went with APQS...but what's the deal with that?? What is the difference? Is it the motor? Is our motor just more heavy duty then one of those machines? Innova is also sealed from what I've heard... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pumpkinpatchquilter Posted November 23, 2013 Author Report Share Posted November 23, 2013 Jim - you are another I must say who always has very level headed even advice and I greatly appreciate your insight. (Even though you don't like feathers - I forgive you! LOL Wasn't that you? Once who said they didn't like feathers?? Hahaha!) Sealed was a term an owner of an HQ gave me, so forgive me if I am using it wrong. What I believe she meant by that was you couldn't just open it up like you can our machines...and that is something I LOVE about ours. I'm not crazy about timing and all of that but one of the selling points was all of the information online...and this forum. Also, as Marci and I were discussing, the lifetime support. So that us who have 10 year plus machines can still call and get help. That is really huge to me...and like Marci says the fact that we can work on our own machines saves money in the long run. I also did some researching after posting here...and I see that the HQ Fusion only goes up to 2200 stitches per minute while the APQS Millie goes up to 3500...that not only speaks to the the motor and power in my mind but also to the ability of the machine...because the ability to move faster also means the ability to get better flow...so that matters. I don't EVER no matter what machine I use want to give up those stitches per minute...not that I quilt at that speed but it just kind of speaks to what the machine is capable of in my mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quiltmonkey Posted November 23, 2013 Report Share Posted November 23, 2013 All gave great advice! One thing to add: if you are considering upgrading your head --- but keeping your original table --- it is super important to make sure that the carriage and new head fit on your existing table. Sometimes they fit and sometimes they don't. If they don't you need the upgraded table, too. It's possible the upgraded carriage and head could be modified to fit the existing table, but you need to ask that question before taking the leap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimerickson Posted November 23, 2013 Report Share Posted November 23, 2013 Valerie: You're right, I don't care for feathers. Not because they don't look nice, but because I think they are over used. Believe it or not, I do occasionally stitch some. Regards. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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