Mercedes Posted February 3, 2014 Report Share Posted February 3, 2014 I'm rearranging my quilting room and noticed that I don't have any type of surge protection for my Millie. Do I have to purchase something specific or will any type of surge protection work? Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThreadWaggle Posted February 3, 2014 Report Share Posted February 3, 2014 Instead of just a surge protector, you might want to consider investing in a Uninterrupted Power Supply (UPS). Surge protectors will protect you if you have a power spike, a UPS will do that and also protect you if you have a power failure. It has a very small power supply that gives you enough time to stop what you are doing and turn off the machine. They say about 20 minutes, but I always stop immediately. They also take care of brown out situations that you might not know are having. If you go this way, APQS has a brand that they suggest. I got a different brand, but made sure it had the same, or better specs then what they suggested. The good thing about the UPS is that it is always working and you don't realize it. When you first plug it in, you let it charge for a set period of time. Mine was 8 hours. Then you plug in what you want on it. From then on it is powering of the unit and refiling it's charge so it is conditioning the electricity the whole time you are using it. You will, however, know when you lose power because it sets off a really loud tone and every one I have had, I have had to go and shut it down to get it to be quiet. I use them on my home network server and desktop too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LisaC Posted February 3, 2014 Report Share Posted February 3, 2014 We have UPS at work and they work great. Mine will run my computer and monitors for an hour. It gives of two beeps periodically when it is running or one beep if low voltage is detected. Of course, you know when it kicks in if the power is off because your household lights go off! I do not have a UPS on my Mille, I do have a very high quality surge protector. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mercedes Posted February 3, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 3, 2014 Does anyone know which one APQS recommends? If not, I'll have to give them a call. Thanks for the tips - I wouldn't have known to get a UPS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westom Posted February 3, 2014 Report Share Posted February 3, 2014 Does anyone know which one APQS recommends? If not, I'll have to give them a call. Thanks for the tips - I wouldn't have known to get a UPS. Which anomaly should be solved? Frequency variation? Harmonics? Brownout? Open Neutral? Reverse polarity? RFI? Power factor? Noise? Sag? EMI/EMC? Blackout? Nothing addresses all anomalies. Most are already made irrelevant by what APQS has already insitalled. A UPS addresses one anomaly - blackout. Nothing addresses all anomalies. Surges are typically hundreds of thousands of joules. How many joules does thte UPS claim to absorb? Hundreds? That is near zero. But just enough above zero to claim it is 100% protection - subjectively. A UPS is temporary and dirty power furing blackouts. For example, the output from this 120 volt UPS when in battery backup mode is 200 volt square waves with spikes up to 270 volts. A waveform that can be harmful to electric motors. And is ideal for electronic devices. Surge protection is always provided by something completely different. Any solution that does useful protection must say where hundreds ot thousands of joules dissipate. Facilities that cannot have damage, instead, earth a 'whole house' protector. Then hundreds of thosuands of joules dissipate harmless outside the house. Then no destructive current is hunting for earth destructively via any household appliance - including refrigerator, computer, dimmer switches, clocks, and smoke detectors. The best protection also means everything is protected. Even the furnace needs that protection only provided by earthed 'whole house' protectors. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RunningThreads Posted February 3, 2014 Report Share Posted February 3, 2014 We have the Tripp Lite SU1000XLA as recommended by APQS It is a little pricey but works excellent. If I understand correctly it constantly filters the power and gives pure sine wave output. I have unplugged the unit while the Millie was running and the machine didn't skip a beat, we couldn't do that with the cheap UPS we had before. Nigel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Busy Quilting Posted February 3, 2014 Report Share Posted February 3, 2014 Wouldn't be without my UPS on my machine, my house water pump and machine are on the same circuit and I can hear the UPS take out the surge of the pump kicking in. We also have them on all our computer systems. The whole house is additionally protected with trip switches in our electricity box shold anything other happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deloajones Posted February 9, 2014 Report Share Posted February 9, 2014 Go to best buy and buy a 43.00 battrey back up serge protector When you get it charge it up first then plug your machine into the reccomended slot http://m.bestbuy.com/m/e/product/detail.jsp;jsessionid=F55B8AF1636C9C903DB99E0AFA43CDEF.bbmdotp-app31-111?skuId=9612674&pid=1218131366127 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westom Posted February 9, 2014 Report Share Posted February 9, 2014 Go to best buy and buy a 43.00 battrey back up serge protector A typical sine wave UPS in battery backup mode outputs maybe 200 volt square waves with a spike up to 270 volts. Superior protection is already in electronics, Meaning 'dirty' UPS power is ideal power. Power directly from AC mains is significantly 'cleaner'. UPS is often recommended because many are informed by hearsay and advertising. Read its specification numbers. Destructive surges are maybe hundreds of thousands of joules. How many joules does that UPS claim to absorb? 365. Near zero. Just enough above zero so that people educated by advertising will recommend it. Noise created by a water pump is also trivial - maybe tens volts. So tiny that a surge protector will even ignore that noise. But just enough to confuse circuits inside some UPSes - cause it to switch to batteries. If a water pump is creating a surge, then protection is needed on that pump. To protect everything including controls for that water pump. International design standards defined 120 volt electronics withstanding spikes even up to 600 volts without damage. Best protection at a machine is already inside that machine. Be concerned for transients that can overwhelm that protection. UPS will not discuss and clearly does not protect from typically destructive transients. Effective protection is where wires enter a building and connected low impedance (ie 'less than 10 feet') to earth ground. That low impedance connection is the most important aspect. Solution, defined above, is the only proven solution for household appliance protection. This superior solution is also a least expensive solution. A well proven solution does not claim to eliminate hundreds of thousands of joules with a near zero circuit rated at only 365 joules - that UPS. A well proven solution earths hundreds of thousands of joules (ie lightning strikes) without damage even to the protector. 'Whole house' solution is necessary to even protect that UPS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuiltGuy Posted February 9, 2014 Report Share Posted February 9, 2014 @Westom: Appreciate the information and clearly from a quick google search this is a significant issue for you... http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html http://forums.macresource.com/read.php?1,997582,1000420 I don't need your statements repeated but have a few questions so I can decide for myself how to proceed: Is this your business? (So I understand if you deal with this issue continually) Do you recommend specific products? Thanks for your input. Looking forward to your answers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westom Posted February 9, 2014 Report Share Posted February 9, 2014 Do you recommend specific products? Thanks for your input. Looking forward to your answers! Depends on which anomaly concerns you. For example, if noise is created by a water pump, then a snubber might be needed on its switch contacts. Noise is irritating; does not damage appliances. A typically destructive anomaly is incoming on AC mains. Lightning is but one example. These anomalies are made irrelevant by connecting them to earth ground. Connected via a 'whole house' protector from many better regarded companies including General Electric, Syscom, Siemens, Polyphaser, Intermatic, ABB, Square D, or Leviton. A Cutler-Hammer solution is sold in Lowes and Home Depot since any informed homeowner can install it. But again, a protector does not protect electronics. Earth ground does. A protector either makes a low impedance connection to earth. Or it does virtually nothing useful. UPS protects unsaved data. So that a blackout does not erase that data. UPS is for that other anomaly. Anomaly must be defined before recommending a solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuiltGuy Posted February 9, 2014 Report Share Posted February 9, 2014 Many of us may not be savvy enough about what anomalies to worry about...Many of us have (very expensive) Quilting machines (as that is what this forum is about!) computers, standard electronics and are served by the standard "grid". Some live in Lightning prone areas, some do not (I don't) the board covers theUS, UK, Australia and a few other countries in the English speaking version. So, I guess what would be valuable is a general recommendation for the average user. If it is significantly different in lightning prone vs. non lightning prone areas you can give both recommendations and we can choose if we wish to protect against lightning if it is rare in our areas...it does not seem like this is too expensive a thing to do. As an Amateur Radio Operator, I already have a significantly enhanced ground system with a copper ground rod and copper braid...and is regularly inspected and cleaned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westom Posted February 9, 2014 Report Share Posted February 9, 2014 If it is significantly different in lightning prone vs. non lightning prone areas you can give both recommendations and we can choose if we wish to protect against lightning if it is rare in our areas...it does not seem like this is too expensive a thing to do. Lightning is but one example. Stray cars, squirrels, bad weather, and utility switching can also create these transients. How serious is the problem? How often are less robust appliances (dimmer switches, GFCI or RCD, etc) damaged and replaced? Destructive transients ocurr maybe once every seven years. A number that can vary significantly even within towns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuiltGuy Posted February 9, 2014 Report Share Posted February 9, 2014 understood, but still two unanswered questions 1. Is this your business? 2. What would you recommend for an average installation? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westom Posted February 9, 2014 Report Share Posted February 9, 2014 understood, but still two unanswered questions 1. Is this your business? 2. What would you recommend for an average installation? Already listed is what every homeowner should have installed. Your telephone, cable TV, and dish (many dish installlers don't provide it) have and are required to have that solution. AC does not unless the homeowner installs it. Earthing one 'whole house' protector is strongly recommended for every home - and not just for a quilting machine. We did this stuff even decades ago. A simple part of larger designs. I don't understand the purpose of that question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuiltGuy Posted February 9, 2014 Report Share Posted February 9, 2014 Well, you are making a strong negative statement about what the manufacturer of our equipment states would be a good idea, now you suggest most homeowners should already have this installed, though I suspect many don't...so the purpose of my previous post is twofold, 1. Is this your business (to determine if you have professional qualifications and experience to make these statements) 2. Since you can not recommend for an individual situation and since you have also stated what you think is wrong with APQS's recommendations and stated that (at least part of this negative statement about UPS and or Surge protection is because) there are things we should do to our homes to have them be safe from this type of incident but that the installation varies, I gave you a standard situation and asked what you would recommend. In your last post, which did not answer either question I asked, you stated that most homes should have this stuff (but my guess is that older homes do not). Neither question appears to be answered and I was simply asking for the above two questions to be answered so we could have a basis to judge your expertise and to see what a standard installation might encompass and so that members here could evaluate their current situations at home against what you recommend and evaluate if they need/want to make changes. As a Moderator for a very large (approx. 70,000 members, no typo that is seventy thousand) Scientific Forum we usually want to know the credentials of the individual making the statement/claim and a real world example that we can all evaluate for ourselves. I am just asking for a bit of scientific rigor and background here so we can understand where you are coming from especially as your statements contradict the recommendations of the manufacturer (who also warranties) of our equipment. Looking forward to your reply Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RunningThreads Posted February 10, 2014 Report Share Posted February 10, 2014 Dave PM sent Nigel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westom Posted February 10, 2014 Report Share Posted February 10, 2014 Well, you are making a strong negative statement about what the manufacturer of our equipment states would be a good idea, Good for which anomaly? Electrical concepts, based in generations of design experience, are suddenly negative? A UPS is recommended for one anomaly - a blackout. Posted is a standard solution to avert hardware damage from a completely different anomaly. Why are you assuming recommendations are for all anomalies? Why does recommending a solution for one anomaly disparage a solutoin for a completely different anomaly? Or did you not understand that? An anomaly that can cause hardware damage (overwhelm protection inside any appliance) is averted by a solution proven by over 100 years of experience and currently found in every facility that cannot have damage. Concepts originally demonstrated by Franklin in 1752. Again, nothing negative. A strongly recommended solutioin to protect both quilting machine and UPS. All homeowners are encouraged to address this one anomaly that is rare but can cause unnecessary and major damage with or without a UPS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuiltGuy Posted February 10, 2014 Report Share Posted February 10, 2014 @Westom: Thanks for proving my perhaps too subtle point! Nigel: Thanks! PM replied to also! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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