thread tension again

[sylkamode]

Hi you all,

After having a lot of trouble with my Millie, I am quilting again. But now it seems I cannot get the tension right. I am working with 100% cotton YLI Variagated threads, like I always do. Also in the bobbin - self winded bobbins. And whatever I try, the top tension seems wonderful, but when I look a the back, I see a lot of firm threads from the bottom thread, and the top thread coming through. At many parts, that is. Some parts it is allright.

I am working on a large quilt, have made lots of doodles, which seems to bee allright, but when I am quilting on the actual quilt - stitch regulator at 11 stitches per inch, a lot of quilting with small curves and flames, the back is not ok to me.

Now I don't know if you have this too sometimes, whatever you try, and what your customer will say when they look at the back, because I know it can be different.

I have tried finer thread in the bobbin too, same problem, again, the work at the front looks ok to me, and that is the part of the quilt that shows, but the back should be ok too, don't you agree?

I cannot pick out all the stitches, because I have already done most of the quilt, so does anyone of you have a clue what to do...

I know I have seen toppics about tension problems more often than I know, but when it happends at your own machine, it seems the questions you have, have never been asked, so I hope someone can answer them for me...

This way I can never actual make quilts for contests, because I know they will look at the back too, itn't this side as important as the front?

Sylvia Kaptein

Sylka-Mode

www.sylkamode.com

[BethDurand]

Hi Sylvia,

I've been having difficulty with pre-wound bobbins, even with my TOWA gauge. Have you tried winding your own bobbin? The other thing that I will do is use my scrap sandwich quilt to test before I ever start on the real quilt. I've got a small "quilt" that I put under my hopping foot and run on manual mode to test tension before I ever start on the customer quilt. When I feel that I've got it set for my scrap, I'll try again on the side of the customer quilt, just to be sure. I also can't see by looking under the machine if the tension is nice or not, so I have to advance the quilt to up nearly on top of the take up roller so that I can look at it easily. This has been most helpful, because it will look nice from the underside, but when I advance the quilt, I can see that it's not good after all. It takes time, but I think it's worth the effort. I will also often repeat the test on the side of the customer quilt after I put in a new bobbin, just to be sure that I don't need to adjust the tension again. Sure enough, if I don't, it makes a mess and I have to rip it out.

Best of luck,

Beth

[sylkamode]

Thanks, Beth,

I do wind up my own bobbins, with the same thread I use at the top, it seems again that going from left to right with small curves and flames, the thread is allright, but going back or in a different direction the bottom thread is tight, and the top threads pokes through. I know it is most important to get the top stitches allright, but I need to find a way to get the bottom stitches right too.

I have tried everything, this seems again a day when nothing works the way you would like to, making a doodle, trying different tentions, looking a the tention page of APQS, asking a friend.... I know not every customer complains about bad tension at the back, but I don't want to rip out all the stitches I have made so far..

Can putting the quilt to taut on the machine be something that disturbs the tention? Even when the stitches are allright from left to right, but bad the other directions?

Sylvia

[DawnCavanaugh]

Sylvia,

Tension problems are one of the most common issues with the machines. The YLI thread you are using is notorious for causing the tension problems you describe. While there isn't going to be a simple, single fix for all tension issues, here are a few to consider for this particular quilt that you are working on:

[*] Switch to a larger needle, such as an MR 4.0 or a 4.5. The larger needle will create a larger hole in the quilt, which helps give the thicker YLI variegated thread space so that it can be pulled up into the layers of the quilt. This is especially important since you are using the same thread in the bobbin.

[*] If you are using a "stack-wound" spool (the thread doesn't criss-cross on the spool like a cone), then mount it horizontally on the machine. With my stack-wound YLI variegated thread, it can even make a difference as to whether the thread is peeling off the top of the spool or the bottom. Sometimes just turning it over makes it work!

[*] Tighten the top tension until you see the bobbin thread pulling up to the top of the quilt. Then, loosen the top tension just a 1/4 turn or so until the the bobbin thread recedes back into the batting. This forces the tension problem to the "top" of the quilt where you can see how the adjustment affects the bobbin.

[*] Don't be afraid to also loosen the bobbin case tension so that the top thread has enough strength to pull the bobbin thread into the quilt sandwich.

[*] It's too late for this quilt, but try to use batting with some loft to it as opposed to a thin batting, so the thread has some "air space" to lock into between the quilt's layers.

[*] This next tip doesn't make the tension issue go away, but sometimes understanding the "why" behind the tension imbalance can help you deal with explaining it to customers. We move long arm machines much faster than we could ever push a quilt under a domestic sewing machine. This force causes the needle to do a LOT of flexing (and sometimes breaking!). That's why we need such heavy-duty needles.

When the needle flexes, it meets the bobbin hook at different positions. The greater the flex, the worse our stitch quality will be. The hook and needle must meet at just the right time to make a balanced stitch (that's where the phrase "timing your machine" comes from).

Your machine will make the BEST stitch moving to your right and towardyourself (when standing on the freehand side of the machine). (Represented by the RED arrows in Photo 1. That's when the hook and needle are meeting at the best "time". When you move to the left and/or away from yourself (shown by the black arrows, again when standing on the freehand side of the machine), you create a gap between the needle and the hook, or the needle gets to the "timing spot" before the hook does--all due to needle flex.

This phenomenon is very evident when you are making loops and curves, since you'll often be moving the machine left and back at the same time, flexing the needle both away from the hook and to the left.

I'm attempting to attach some additional photos in another post to illustrate this (thanks to Debbi Treusch for her white board idea).

To reduce the "flex effect":

[*] set your stitch length a little shorter;

[*] use an MR 4.0 or higher needle;

[*] move more slowly around curves;

[*] plan your quilting path to reduce right to left quilting or front to back quilting (when you're on the freehand side)

[*] do each pantograph row from right to left when on the back side of the machine (cut off your thread and start over for "row two")

Hopefully, one of these suggestions will help you. Don't give up on quilting for shows--as a quilt judge, I can tell you that even the top winners have tension woes. They have just learned "camouflage" techniques like using busy print backing fabric, matching the top and bobbin thread, using invisible thread in the bobbin, and even coloring in the bobbin thread with fabric markers!

Do your best to balance the tension, but take some solace in the fact that some of the issue is just a "physics" thing.

Hang in there!

Dawn

[DawnCavanaugh]

Additional hook flex photos:

[DawnCavanaugh]

When moving to your RIGHT on the freehand side, the hook and needle meet properly:

[DawnCavanaugh]

Pushing the machine away from yourself (on the freehand side) creates a gap between the needle and hook (and changes the tension):

[DawnCavanaugh]

Rats--got interrupted and put the wrong photo in the post above. Here's the photo illustrating "gap":

[DawnCavanaugh]

Moving the machine to the LEFT (on the freehand side) means the needle gets to the "timing spot" before the hook, creating a tension change:

[DawnCavanaugh]

Moving the head to the RIGHT on the freehand side means the hook and needle meet at the correct time for a good stitch (the needle flexes left, but the hook can still catch the bobbin thread in time to lock the stitch):

[mrsbishwit]

Another thing that I have found also when having simiular tension issues with curves and flame type designs is that if you go too fast over the design you tend to flex your needle more like Dawn said and you get the resuts you are getting.

Try slowing down in the spots that you know have produced the troubled stitch quality.

Joann

[dtreusch]

Great pictures and explanation Dawn. Thanks!! Debbi

[BethDurand]

I know that this is off subject, but I was looking at my Innovations class schedule this morning. After the above directions, I know that taking some classes from Dawn needs to be high on my list!

Beth

[Bekah]

having had tension nightmares most of my life with my beasty, who is close to becoming a beauty, I can sympathize with you. For me I think the two things that helped the most, other than all the cleaning and stuff, was learning to slow down in the curves and going to a higher loft batting. I decided to switch batting until I get more used to the sweet spot on my machine. I used to go really slow on my machine and was told to speed up so I sped up and promptly forgot how to slow down. It is hard relearning stuff after 60 let me tell you:P

Hang in there and please know you are definitely not alone with these tension issues. the wonderful thing about APQS is they are so willing to help and the people on this forum who pick us up when we are down. I don't think I could have made it through the last bunch of quilts I did without all the people here who supported me and gave me ideas.

Dawn thank you for posting the photos

[nora123]

While I am a newbie I was given very good advice from a very accomplised LA quilter. She told me to buy and use MAXI LOC thread. One it is cost effective. Two it give almost no tension problems. And three it causes very little dust bunnies in your bobbin case area. Adjust your tension until you think it will beack and the back it off just a bit. Start with the upper tension and if need be tighten or loosen your bobbin tenion. The bobbin case should drop slowly if you hold it by the thread kinda like a yo-yo. Hope this helps.

Nora

Washougal Washington

Millennium