Kristina, Bonnie, Hiedi,Doodlebug Needles?

[francine]

OK i have found that you 4 muskateers seldom (read never ) give me bad info:D.

What needles do you use?

[Quilting Heidi]

LOL that is funny! I still use the Singer MR. I do use the organ needles on my domestic though so I may have to give those a try. I tried the Grotz and didn't like them at all. At first my stitch was perfect but the needle dulled very quickly and then caused nothing but problems.

[LinneaMarie]

Well, I'm not one of your experts, (or anyone's for that matter!) but I am using the Groz Beckert and I really like them. I mostly use size 4, sometimes 4.5.

JMHO The label says 134 MR, 1955 MR, 134 SAN 11, DP X 5 MR. I order 100 at a time from Superior Thread and you can mix and match sizes. I have not yet tried the Organ, but I'm hearing good reports on them. I use Schmetz top stitch needles in my Bernina.

I think Dawn Cavanaugh has a page about this on Quilt Talk n the APQS website.

[quiltmonkey]

I am not one of the 4 mousekateers but I use the Singer MR 1955 needles in sizes 3.5, 4.0 and 4.5 (depending on the thread being used)

[francine]

:P OH MY GOSH IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN THE 5 MUSKATEERS!!!! :P

[witha'K'quilting]

I use the Singer 1955-01-MR 3.5 and 4.0 needles also.

Wow...I made it to the #1 spot...how exciting!

[Matt Sparrow]

Here's an email I received from Karen McT and Dawn C. about needles. Since reading it I use Singer MR's.

Groz-Beckert Buys Singer Needle Production

June 26, 2009

Rumors have been circulating for the past several weeks about Groz Beckert buying out the Singer needle production line. This transaction has indeed taken place, and is causing lots of confusion among longarm quilters as to what needles to buy for their APQS machines. This article should help set the record straight, and help you make a good buying decision the next time you purchase supplies for your machine.

As you know, APQS hand-crafts each machine we make; no two are exactly alike since our assembly line consists of caring human hands instead of robotic arms. We carefully inspect each machine we build, and do meticulous "sew offs" to make sure each machine functions properly before leaving the factory. One of our master craftspeople calibrates and times each machine to very close tolerances, which means using a very specific needle to produce superior stitch quality.

Over the years, quilters have tried other brands of needles besides the APQS-recommended Singer needles , with varying degrees of success. Groz-Beckert titanium needles have become popular among the general longarm population because of their stiffer shank and longer wear. However, those needles have a slightly different length from APQS-recommended needles, which can impact stitch quality.

I asked our service technician, Amy Anderson, why some APQS owners have successfully used Groz-Beckert needles in the past, while others have had nothing but trouble with them. Her response shed some light on that dilemma, and illustrates the importance of choosing the RIGHT needle for your machine.

According to Amy, the Groz-Beckert needles that quilters have been buying over the last few years are actually slightly shorter than the Singer needles that APQS uses. This puts the scarf at a different place on the needle, which can result in tension issues or stitch quality problems. The reason that some APQS quilters have had success with some of the Groz-Beckert needles in the past and others have not is the "timing" factor. Even with close tolerances used during machine assembly, the "human factor" can play into timing the machine.

With the longer Singer needle, APQS times the hook assembly so that the hook passes behind the needle in the lower half of the scarf. That gives a little tolerance to the timing, providing a greater "sweet spot" on a Singer needle. With the shorter Groz-Beckert titanium needles, the "sweet spot" is greatly reduced.

Frankly, if you have been able to use the shorter GB needles in the past, it is more"luck" than anything else, because your particular machine was probably timed with the hook passing very close to the center of the Singer scarf. However, most APQS machines are timed just a bit lower than that "half-way" point on the Singer needle. From the illustration below, you can see that your hook would still pass by the scarf on the Groz- Beckert shorter needle if timed close to "center" on the original Singer needle, but the hook would strike the bottom of the Groz-Beckert needle instead of the scarf if the timing was lower than that. That tiny fraction of an inch makes all the difference.

Singer needles are used to time APQS machines.

Groz-Beckert needles that

are not "MR" designated may not sew properly.

So, that explains the mystery of Groz-Beckert needles past. Now let's look at Groz-Beckert needles for the present and future!

When Groz-Beckert absorbed the Singer needle company, they also began producing needles with the same technical specifications as Singer. These needles will be exactly the same as the needles you have purchased in the past from APQS in yellow packages. Our engineer, Mike Moore, examined the needles under powerful magnification to verify that fact.

As APQS goes through its remaining inventory of original package Singer needles (yellow package) and moves toward the Groz-Beckert needles, you will see a difference in packaging. What is most critical is the LABELING. Just as needle companies like Schmetz and Klassé make different needles for different applications, the same is true for Groz-Beckert. You must look beyond the "Groz Beckert" brand name and select the needles that are correct for your APQS machine.

If your Groz-Beckert package looks like the photo below instead (or something else), or if a vendor has added their own label to indicate the needle is an "MR", there is no guarantee that the needles will work with your APQS machine. Be careful when purchasing from vendors other than APQS to ensure you are getting the right needle. The "MR" classification is very important. You should still be able to get needles in sizes including MR 3.5, MR 4.0, MR 4.5 and MR 5.0.

July 22, 2009

Let me get right to the point (bad pun, but I couldn�t resist). Needles are confusing. For hand sewing, you can choose needles described as tapestry, embroidery, betweens, millinery, chenille, darners, and sharps. I admit that many times I have stared at the packages in the notions aisle, trying to decode the descriptions. What are "betweens" really between? Why wouldn't I want a "sharp" needle? The whole reason I'm buying needles in the first place is because my current needle is dull!

Inevitably, I buy the bulk pack, which includes needles the size of toothpicks next to ones smaller than a strand of human hair. I figure that a huge assortment like that surely has one needle in the pack that will suit my purpose; the rest are just bonuses to help replace the ones that have found their way into the deep pile of my carpet or occasionally the bottom of my shoe. (No bare feet are allowed in my work area for that very reason.)

Longarm needles are getting just as confusing! If you aren"t careful, you can spend several hundred dollars on products touted to work with your machine, only to discover that slight variances from your original equipment make them unusable. Recently, I posted information about Groz-Beckert (GB) needles to my QuiltTalk blog in an attempt to help clear up some of the confusion. Unfortunately, I apparently didn't know the whole story.

Ron Russell, National Sales Manager for Groz-Beckert USA, Inc., sent me a very informative email describing the history of GB needles and how the GB production line compares to the MR Singer needles that APQS uses as standard in our quilting machines. According to Mr. Russell, GB purchased the Singer Needle Factories (SNF) in 1998, but did not purchase the Singer name. At the time, Mr. Russell says that, "GB was already in the process of designing and manufacturing their own ideas in an MR (Multi-Range) needle. With the MR designation owned by Singer, we called ours the SAN 11 (Special Application Needle) with Titanium Nitride (GEBEDUR) coating." Mr. Russell adds that the "SAN needle is an improved version of the SNF MR needle with many new ideas and improved technologies."

Mr. Russell included two photographs with his email that compare these needles:

SNF 1955-01-MR 5.0 - 339.200 AC 01 (Singer needles recommended by APQS)

GB 134 MR 5.0 - 339.200 AC 43 (Groz-Beckert's version of the Singer Needle)

134 SAN 11 GEBEDUR - 339.200 AD31 (Groz-Beckert's Titanium Nitride coated needle)

According to his calculations, all three are the same length from the top of the shank to the top of the eye, are the same shank diameter, and are single groove. The SNF needle is slightly longer, which Mr. Russell says should not affect performance. The other difference is that two are chrome plated and one is Titanium coated. The Titanium finish will be slightly stronger and will "last at least three times longer than the chrome version."

Groz-Beckert multi-labels its needle packages to indicate compatibility with other needles/systems. However, Mr. Russell commented that since Singer had the trademark "MR" designation, GB could not include it on their label. In addition, since the SAN 11 is a different needle compared to the regular "134" needle system, the "MR" designation is not included on that package, either. However, he claims that all three needles should perform similarly. As to why some quilters have a difficult time using the needles not labeled "MR" (such as the SAN 11) while others do not, Mr. Russell says, �"It was probably due to the hook timing; the hook point should enter the scarf approximately 1/16 to 1/32 of an inch above the eye into the scarf area for optimum performance".

So there you have it. APQS machines are hand-built and timed at the factory to a specific needle labeled "MR". In the rare occasions when a customer needs to re-time a machine, in our opinion this needle allows for a little greater margin of error as to where the hook point passes the scarf. This makes it easier for even an inexperienced quilter to re-time her machine if the need arises.

We certainly are not "married" to any specific company or needle, but have made our selections based on one top priority: to give APQS customers superior stitch quality and machine performance. While we try to stay current with new products that are introduced into the longarm market (especially as they relate to the performance of your APQS machine), we can certainly miss something. If you discover a new product like a different needle or bobbin case out there, but don't want to be the "guinea pig" and try it on your machine, let us know about it! We can test the product at the factory in a controlled environment, run it "hard" and put it through extremes to establish its strengths and weaknesses. We can then give you a "thumbs up" and endorse the product, or can tell you the pitfalls we encountered while using it.

[Bonnie]

I at one time used the off brands, but honestly have gone back to the MR's. I only use the 4.0 and 3.5's but have foiund that the 4.0's actually work for all my needs.

Here a chuckle, I thought I was using a 3.5 once, but when I broke it I actually found it was a 4.0 and I was getting perfect stitches with So Fine top and bottom so since then I shelved the 3.5's.

[Sheri Butler]

Singer MR user here.

[doodlebug]

i use the singer MRs here also

[francine]

Whomever uses the organ dpx134-ski 110/18 (from John M) or the groz-beckert 134san11 130/21 (from superior) 1st to email can have them. I have one packet each and i do not like them I thought it was my newbie imagination,BUT, the Muskateers and other caring quilters, have once again guided me in the right direction.

(Amy too she told us in maintenance class to use the singer mr)

:):):):):):):):):):)

THANK YOU

[skrat]

Ok, all, where are you getting your Singer MR needles because I was informed that they are no longer made. They are all GB's?

[RoseCity Quilter]

Matt,

I read that e-mail you posted from Karen McTavish and Dawn C. and just got confused. Are Singer MR and GBMR the same thing?

I had been using GB MR since picking some up from Suppirour threads at Innovations in Sept. and have been having a lot of stitch quality issues. Recently another longarmer who lives close by stopped at my store and we were taking and she just switched back to Singer MR from GB MR and was much happier, so after she left I put in the one Singer MR in size 4 that I had left and all my trouble dissapeared! Of course now I am out of Singer MR 4.0, so I am using 3.5. I tryed to order more 4.0 from Canadian Longarm Supply and they sent the Singer in the 4.5 and 3.5 that I also ordered, but they sent GB in the 4.0! So are they the same thing????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Really need help with this!