definition of professional quilter

[hollyc]

After ready newellen's post and her unfortunate mishap. I have a couple of questions.

1. Is the definition of a professional quilter left up to the individual quilt show?

2. Is there a universal definition of a professional quilter?/ What is included in the definition of a professional quilter?

* sells quilts?

* has won grand champ/best of show so many times?--at what level of competition? county fair, national show, etc

* teaches classes ( lot of people teach at local quilt shops...does that make you a professional?)

* gives talks to various quilt guilds? ( you have to have something to offer to talk to a local guild)

* quilts for others ( is paid)--this to me seems more like a job than a definition of professional quilter. Not every quilter who quilts for others does quilt show quality work.

Personally, I don't think making quilts for others and getting paid qualifies anyone as a professional quilter. It is all about the quality of the work...award-winning or great work, but not quilt show quality.

What do you all think?

A professional long arm quilter is a whole other category to me. Not intending to dis anyone who is a professional long arm quilter.

[Hollyrw]

For golf, amateur vs. professional is actually defined.

Appendix III of the Rules of Golf

Source: Rules of Amateur Status

3-2. Prize Limits

a. General

An amateur golfer must not accept a prize (other than a symbolic prize) or prize voucher of retail value in excess of $750 or the equivalent, or such a lesser figure as may be decided by the USGA. This limit applies to the total prizes or prize vouchers received by an amateur golfer in any one competition or series of competitions.

Being good enough to compete with professionals is NOT the definition of a professional. Also, many golf professionals (instructors, etc.) are not necessarily great golfers. My husband has a very low, single digit handicap. People who don't understand golf will often times call him a professional, thinking that being good at something makes one a professional. That is simply not the case.

[blair8904]

This makes so much sense. Thanks for sharing. Professional or not, a single digit handicap is very impressive!

[quiltmonkey]

Hey, I have a full time job outside of home, and a very limited (mostly for the fun of it) part time thing on the side where I might quilt a 1-3 quilts a month. Most of them are e2e or pantographs. Sometimes I do a custom quilt here or there, but it's not often. I certainly don't rake in the big bucks with my very limited (mostly for the fun of it) part time side business. Never has been my intention to be my sole source of income.

The main reason I bought this machine was for my own personal satisfaction and quilting a little bit on the side as a small business...

So...with that under consideration, am I considered a professional quilter? I think this definition is all over the map, depending who you ask.

[njquiltergirl]

I read it defined once as:

Any one who makes or has made money quilting, sewing or crafting now or in the past. Includes making, selling, teaching or finishing for self or others.

Or something like that.

Who knows!

Lisa

APQS Liberty

Circle Lord

NJ

[Guest Linda S]

It will depend on the show's individual rules. For our county fair, anyone who has made money from quilting (piecing a top together, hand quilting or machine quilting) a quilt is a professional. What really sucks it that we only get to enter ONE quilt in the whole show if we are professionals. My friend Shirley once pieced a quilt for a fellow who really liked one she made -- she's now a professional, even though she usually just pieces for herself and her family.

[JustSewSimple]

I too am not a professional quilter but I quilt 1-2 quilts per month for money. I am a "teaching professional" as I have a Masters Degree and certification that says so. There are many more things about quilting that I don't know than that I do know. I don't think that making 1.5 cents a square inch for sitiching on the random quilt makes me a professional.

[hollyc]

I like the golfer's analogy. Sylvia, I hear what you are saying. It just seems so completely arbitrary, quilt show specific, or individual defined.

[Ferret]

My view is if you are hired by others and paid money to do quilting in some way you are a professional. So if you teach quilting, write patterns or books, produce dvd's, or quilt for hire then you are a professional.

However I have run across one show where the rule had a definition and a loop hole. It was something like 'make quilts for money' now that doesn't quite hit a longarmer. I still entered as a professional. When paid quilters won awards there was talk, it wasn't popular. I did very well from it, as one of the very few professional quilters, the next year there were a lot more of us Really I think it has to be down to the show to clearly state how they view a professional. One show had what I thought was a much better system and did clearly define every step of it. I think it had 4 classes, Beginner, intermediate, advanced and professional. I suspect my definition above is pretty much from their rules. It made sense to me. The first three categories did mention awards and winning big would automatically put you up at least one class. I thought that was a really nice way of trying to level the playing field.

I do think the shows should nail it down. I'm not comfortable with someone who sells one of their quilts being called professional, but I do think quilting for hire should trigger it. However few quilts you do you are selling a skill you have that your customer doesn't.

If you are going to go by qualification, I am not a professional and never will be, but I make my living from my quilting related work.

So yes, by my definition both Sylvia and Shana are professionals but newellen is not. She has not been paid for her skills. Yup she may well spend more time quilting that the other two, but if the rule is no professionals she can enter but most of us can't. It would be better in my opinion to encourage professional entries but put them in their own class.

Ferret

[hollyc]

I could certainly live by Ferret's rules! Well put

[meg]

quilting is an art - and professional artists sell thier work & display it in galleries. this is how they live. hence - the starving artist.

to me - the professional should be determined by income.

i think if you make money doing it - but dont live off that money and instead reinvest it in your craft then you are not professional. this is a hobby.

if you live from the money you earn quilting - then you are a professional.

jmho

[LauraJ]

Professional: adjective: " following an occupation as a means of livelihood or for gain": a professional quilter.

"following as a business an occupation ordinarily engaged in as a pastime": a professional quilter.

Newellen is not a 'Professional" - she's a quilter. Right now, I'm a "quilter" and if/when I start taking money for any quilting I do for others, I become a professional. Bummer.

Does this sound correct to the rest of you?

[meg]

laura - no, not to me.

i think you would professional if that is how you supported yourself. but if you are only making money and reinvesting it in your hobby, then you are either a student or hobbyist.

jmho. unfortunately, there are many ways to interpret this and i guess that is where the problem that lynda came across came from.

[mestuart]

This is such a good topic for this time of year when all the Fall Fairs, ( or whatever you call them in your part of the country) are up and running. Maybe we should all, (myself included) forward all the info along to our fair committees and let them realize some of the issues that come up from such a narrow point of view.

When I went to Quilt Canada in the spring, and it was held in Calgary Alberta, I was really miffed (it's all in the terminology) about the lack of information on all the quilts as to whether they were machine quilted by the maker or had been taken to a Long Armer. And no credit was given to some amazing quilting.

Does that mean we can be a Long Armer and not be a Professional.....Hell(o) yes.

Our own local Fall Fair has a Special Competion wall hanging, than can be hand or domestic sewing machine, but NO COMMERICAL MACHINE QUILTING ALLOWED. What does that mean, when I only quilt my own quilts or wall hanging, but I do have a $20,+++ machine, (thanks to two estates, leaving me some $$)

In our small neck of the woods, we have one Computerized Machine, 4 long arms. (minimum) at least that many Mid Arms. and lots of Mini Frames, set up. And those are only the ones I know about. Why does the price of the machine equal skill and practice?

IMHO it doesn't. some people have amazing skills and work on small machines, and some have less skill and have the huge "Industrial" machines. Lets keep the topic going and work on getting a concensus on what we do need/want in our fall fairs.

Marion in BC

[fineseams]

This brings up lots of questions to someone who definitely ISN'T a professional quilter, but who has thoughts of quilting for others for money when I finally convince Ultie to behave properly. I teach dsm free motion quilting for a very modest fee to my guild. I usually spend more money preparing for the class than I get for teaching it. I do not report the small fee I get on my income tax because it definitely qualifies as a hobby under IRS rules.

Would there be something similar for LAers? Seems to me you are a professional if you report income from your quilting on your tax return. If Uncle Sam won't let you write off your loss as a business expense, then it is a hobby. Another way to tell would be whether you have a resale number. Even if your business shows a loss, if you are buying wholesale, there is a clear intent to be in the business, as far as the IRS and your state tax board are concerned.

I have no idea how all this relates to Fair rules, but looking at it from an accounting and tax preparation standpoint, I think it it pretty clear....

[LaurieG]

I am a professional quilter. I quilt for hire. I am dedicated to continuing my quilting education by taking classes from nationally known teachers and do so yearly.

I have a business license and I collect sales tax for the State Board of Equalization. My tax accountant prepares my taxes as a professional business.

Does the fact that I don't have to do this to support myself make it any less professional?

This is what I believe. I haven't been a "hobbyist" since the day I took in my first paying quilt.

[Dave-Jane]

For insurance purposes a business or professional definition is :

1) Acting as a business and appearing as a professional - having a tax id, collecting sales tax, filing income tax, signs, business cards or brochures etc.

2) intent to make a profit (some use a dollar amount of $2500 or more a year), but true definition is just the intent to make a profit.

3) Must be done on more than one occasion

4) accepting a donation or covering expenses is not a business.

Same as Bonnie - It should all boil down to fair rules and they should be clear. When my daughter was showing dogs in 4H, the kids were working hard with their little dogs - most of them mixes. One year, the fair had a lot of entries, people who not been to any of the meetings. The day of the fair came and the parking lot had some very nice vans and motor homes. Out came obviously professionally groomed & trained dogs, kids and parents- of course they took most all the ribbons. The kids were members of 4-H but had never been to a meeting. The parents showed at AKC shows. There were lots of hard feelings and new rules were quickly added for the next year - must attend a certain number of meetings, etc.

In horse shows, they have novice classes - no previous blue ribbons. I believe the key is to have proper classes and clear definitions. There should be room for an experienced quilter - something for others to strive for, as well as classes for the novice.

Jane

[meg_marsh]

New spin - talk to your tax accountants - I have discussed this with mine at length due to the fact that I go between 2 states. Once you have to file for and obtain licenses - professional!!! and you should be looking at the law and doing this legally and correctly. Just a thought. The question is when you have to apply for and what are the tax ramifications on the amount you earn. This is strictly the legal side of the issue.

[meg]

Originally posted by LaurieG

I am a professional quilter. I quilt for hire. I am dedicated to continuing my quilting education by taking classes from nationally known teachers and do so yearly.

I have a business license and I collect sales tax for the State Board of Equalization. My tax accountant prepares my taxes as a professional business.

Does the fact that I don't have to do this to support myself make it any less professional?

This is what I believe. I haven't been a "hobbyist" since the day I took in my first paying quilt.

I'm not saying that you are not professional...I am saying that the only quilters who should be required to enter in the professional category are those who support themselves with thier quilting. All the others should take into consideration thier abilities and situation and make that decision for themselves.

For example, newellen clearly possesses professional quilting abilities. But she has never made a dime at it. And there are quilters out there who have collected sales tax who are not nearly as talented as Lynda who consider themselves professionals. Lyndda is the better quilter, yet she is not a pro.

This was my opinion was on what the shows should be able enforce - i hope you were not offended by it. It was certainly not meant to offend.

[Quilting Heidi]

I'm in the same boat as Shana. Quilting will not support me but it does support my quilting habit . I guess I have always considered myself a "hobbyist" since it is not my primary profession. I do however have a tax ID and collect sales tax and claim my business on my tax return. It is always interesting to me how labels are applied. LOL I just like to quilt and really don't care how people label me or what I do. I have a hard time claming professional on quilts that I've pieced and quilted for myself because to me it sounds like you had it done by somebody else. If I didn't quilt for others I'd get a lot more done for me.

[Ferret]

It sounds like in the US you can earn some money without declaring it for tax. Here you have to declare it, even if you make a net loss over a year. Here you have to also declare trades as income. So If you give me a bag of potatoes and I quilt your quilt we would both have to declare that as income.

Maybe this difference changes how people see being a professional.

Ferret

[Liam]

Shana, Heidi and I share the same boat, I consider myself a hobbist. I too have a tax ID and I quilt a dozen or so quilts for others each year. I am self taught and have never taken formal classes. I rarely do custom quilting, mainly e2e/pantos. E2E/Panto quilting is the only quilting I offer to my customers, otherwise I wouldn't have any quilting time for myself with having a full time job and having my feet in so many other buckets. The money I do make goes toward supporting my hobby (which doesn't come close to what I spend). Even though I don't have nearly the talent that a lot of you have and I have never showed any quilts, I would be considered a professional in many venues.

[Quilting Heidi]

Originally posted by Ferret

It sounds like in the US you can earn some money without declaring it for tax. Here you have to declare it, even if you make a net loss over a year. Here you have to also declare trades as income. So If you give me a bag of potatoes and I quilt your quilt we would both have to declare that as income.

Maybe this difference changes how people see being a professional.

Ferret

Ferret - we have to declare the income/loss as well. If you are a sole proprietorship you can claim it with your regular taxes as an additional schedule but you most definitely have to report it.

[Primitive1]

THis is what the dictionary on line says about a "professional"....

pro·fes·sion·al (pr-fsh-nl)

adj.

1.

a. Of, relating to, engaged in, or suitable for a profession: lawyers, doctors, and other professional people.

b. Conforming to the standards of a profession: professional behavior.

2. Engaging in a given activity as a source of livelihood or as a career: a professional writer.

3. Performed by persons receiving pay: professional football.

4. Having or showing great skill; expert: a professional repair job.

n.

1. A person following a profession, especially a learned profession.

2. One who earns a living in a given or implied occupation: hired a professional to decorate the house.

3. A skilled practitioner; an expert.

pro·fession·al·ly adv.

so I guess all of the above applies...I think the problem is what the shows define as categories for their shows or maybe aren't clear on......

[LauraJ]

Here's another question. When I was at MQS and Road 2 CA this year, some folks won awards and I would consider them a "Master" at quilting. They only quilt for show. But, they were judged with "professional", "hobbyists", etc. as there was no delineation as to who was what - just quilts in categories.

As quilters, how do we best communicate to shows, big and small, what the judging criteria/quilting ability break-down could be to be fair to all? Isn't this complicated?!