LinneaMarie Posted March 1, 2013 Report Share Posted March 1, 2013 There is a small quilt show close to me, with about 225 quilts. The judging was done, for the second year in a row; by a mother/daughter team. A quilt was entered by a third, unrelated person. However it was quilted by machine by one of the judges. When it came to judging the machine quilting she excused herself; but let her daughter/or mother judge it. Guess what? It won FIRST PLACE HUH? I understand it was brought to the attention of NQA who said it was highly unethical. Yes, all my quilt guilds think so too! (I belong to 4 groups) So, what do you all think? Should the ribbon be taken away and given to the second place winner? I know I would not have these people EVER judge again! Will they lose their NQA Judge Certification? Tell me how you really feel!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delld Posted March 1, 2013 Report Share Posted March 1, 2013 My first question would be did the judging team know this quilt was in this show when they accepted the invitation to judge? If they did, then there is a big problem. If not, then when was it discovered and what, when and how was the problem addressed. Just sayin! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrandmaLKB Posted March 1, 2013 Report Share Posted March 1, 2013 Oh my...........a very sticky situation !!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonnie H Posted March 1, 2013 Report Share Posted March 1, 2013 LinnaeMarie, was it deserving of the ribbon or not so much?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ffq-lar Posted March 1, 2013 Report Share Posted March 1, 2013 There seems to be a slew of "ethical" questions on the forum today! A judge should never allow themselves to be put in a position to judge for family, business associates, or customers. That's only common sense to have a level playing field and remove any hint of favoritism. The daughter/judge should have excused herself from judging that particular quilt. If that upset the entrant, she has recourse to enter her quilt in another show. Impeccable judging ethics is required to keep a show viable and trustworthy. There is enough chatter in the quilt world about quilt judges being biased towards this style or that technique without having family favoritism added to the mix. Even if the quilt was deserving of a ribbon, I'm sure the second and third place quilters will never accept the decision. What a shame..... Casual conversations that I overheard or were openly shared in "big girl" quilting classes lead me to believe that this kind of thing happens with some frequency. The big-name piecers/quilters all have a very definite style and judges can spot their work a mile away. So even if the label is covered, rest assured that a "KT" quilt, "MB/CCM" quilt, or "SS" quilt is completely recognizable--and may already have won big awards in other shows with published pictures online and in the magazines. So a judge must be scrupulously honest, ethical, and forthcoming when they judge. Not an easy task when you have 3 minutes to judge a quilt and 300 quilts to look at before ribbons are awarded. Please keep us updated on this situation and any reversal of awards. I think there is usually something in the entry application about "all judging is final" so while a storm of protest might not change the outcome of this show, it will affect the next one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonnie H Posted March 1, 2013 Report Share Posted March 1, 2013 Linda, it never occurred to me the number of quilts and the time frame a judge was under. And here I have a hard time keeping track to judge the next American Idol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LinneaMarie Posted March 1, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 1, 2013 Going to the show tomorrow and I will give you updates. I know the show coordinator is taking tons of flack for this. She herself is NOT a quilter. As for whether or not they knew the quilt would be entered?? Who knows? And if they are this unethical, would they tell? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LinneaMarie Posted March 1, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 1, 2013 AND, I also "heard" it was done on a Statler Stitcher. So, computer quilted. And that's OK, there is not a separate category for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustSewSimple Posted March 2, 2013 Report Share Posted March 2, 2013 OHhhhhhhhh! Shame shame! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimerickson Posted March 2, 2013 Report Share Posted March 2, 2013 If I were the judge, and I'm not a judge, and I recognized one of my quilts, I would not have awarded it a ribbon. There is enough subjectivity in judging that that kind of decision could be easily defended. Awarding yourself a ribbon on the other hand, is way harder to defend. My personal view is that too much stock is placed on quilt show awards. Now I'm not a quilter who makes his living off my work, so maybe I under value awards. But I've been to enough quilt shows to know there is no reliable way to determine what quilts will win. Juging is too subjective. Quilts that I've loved got no awards, and some, in my opinion, crap quilts got awards. The award isn't that good a "yard stick". I tell all my quilting friends to not concern themselves with awards. If you get one, fine. Enjoy it, but if you don't, don't feel bad. The judge just didn't happen to like the kind of work you do. No reflection on you. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrandmaLKB Posted March 2, 2013 Report Share Posted March 2, 2013 If I were the judge, and I'm not a judge, and I recognized one of my quilts, I would not have awarded it a ribbon. There is enough subjectivity in judging that that kind of decision could be easily defended. Awarding yourself a ribbon on the other hand, is way harder to defend. My personal view is that too much stock is placed on quilt show awards. Now I'm not a quilter who makes his living off my work, so maybe I under value awards. But I've been to enough quilt shows to know there is no reliable way to determine what quilts will win. Juging is too subjective. Quilts that I've loved got no awards, and some, in my opinion, crap quilts got awards. The award isn't that good a "yard stick". I tell all my quilting friends to not concern themselves with awards. If you get one, fine. Enjoy it, but if you don't, don't feel bad. The judge just didn't happen to like the kind of work you do. No reflection on you. Jim Oh that is so true............judges can be biased one way or the other for style, color, etc. At our little county fair one year we had a judge who openly stated that she prefered hand quilted quilts to the machine quilted quilts and guess who got the ribbons? We machine quilters figured we were out of the running before she even looked at our quilts. The next year, they made machine/hand quilting seperate catagories. Now last year the computerized quilting showed up and my hand guided quilting was being judged next to the computer guided. Several of us were upset over that, so it will be interesting to see if they make that a separate category this coming year. I, too, have been to big and small shows where I wondered "what on earth were the judges thinking" when I saw which quilts had blue ribbons or best of show and others got nothing. I guess I wouldn't want to be a judge either ....... tough job, I'm sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quilting Heidi Posted March 2, 2013 Report Share Posted March 2, 2013 Personally I don't think that either the daughter or mother should have judged a quilt known to be quilted by the other. I don't think no matter how hard to try that you can be that subjective. I sure wouldn't like it. I also don't like that there are times when volunteers assist with quilt shows and are in the judging room when quilts are being judged. My personal opinion is that if you have a vested interest in the outcome of the quilts being judged you should not be working with the judges. Yes it is true that judges can pick out quilts quilted by certain people. I've seen awards given to quilt that I'm pretty sure would not have gotten a ribbon over other quilts if it had not been known who quilted that quilt. I guess it is just the way it is in the the world of judging. I'd like to think that most judges are not biased. In this case I think it was just unethical for them to judge that quilt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zora Posted March 2, 2013 Report Share Posted March 2, 2013 I have judged at the State Fair in the past. All of the judges have tried to go out of their way to be fair and ethical in their judging. Because most of the judges were from the area where the fair is held, and because a lot of the entries come from local guilds where judges are members, it was not uncommon for a quilt to be recognized by a particular judge. They usually passed off judging of that quilt to other judges. If you have a limited amout of judges, its a problem. The quilting is only one part of the judging process. If the quilt was being judged solely on the quilting and won in a category solely for the quilting, its unethical. If it was judged on workmanship, design, etc. with the quilting being only a part of the decision, it is less so. Its still going to be perceived as unethical, so the show should try to find a more diverse pool of judges in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rita Posted March 2, 2013 Report Share Posted March 2, 2013 Linnea -was this at Lakepark Farms, Kirtland? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mamu Posted March 2, 2013 Report Share Posted March 2, 2013 I have turned down many offers for being a judge at the local quilts show and fair. I told them that I could recognize peoples work and it wouldn't be right for me to be a judge. With our counties limited availability of certified judges, they ask local quilt makers to be judges. You can imagine the amount of problems this causes. However, the quilt maker has a choice wheather they want their quilt judged or not. Most of the larger quilts shows in my area, offer public choice for various categories. This seems to be a better solution than having a handful of local quilt makers judge friends quilts and causes much less problems. This wouldn't work for the major shows where the 'big bucks' are. Back to the orginal question of the mother/daughter judges being unethical.... in my opinion YES, they should have excused themselves from judging any works that either of them might have done and had another judge them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JenniferBernard Posted March 2, 2013 Report Share Posted March 2, 2013 Judging is such an interesting process. I belong to the Iowa Quilters Guild and in the past we had NQA judges judge our shows. I learned a lot about the judging process and how to improve my work in the process. Learning how to be a judge from the NQA is a very involved process and takes a lot of work. They even have to go before a panel to get their final certification. So they are trained to try to take away some of what we would call " favoritism" from the process. However, we are people with different brains, view points, ect. My eyes were really opened when I discussed hores show judging with my daughter. I saw 15 to 20 expensive well trained horses all of the same breed riding around the arena doing the same thing. 4 very qualified horse judges all looking at the same horses and riders. They scored them on a point system. Then they lined then up from 1st to last according to the first judge. Then they shuffled then to line them up according to the 2nd judge, then the 3rd judge, and then the 4th judge. It was amaizing to see the difference in each judge's line up. Sometimes the first place horse for 1 judge would be way down the line for another judge. For final placing they added up the scores of all the judges. A human factor does go into all judging. I think that is just the way of it. My daughter and I also discussed that in quilt judging the maker of the quilt is supposedly confidential. In horse shows they wear entry numbers but she said that the judges know who the horses belong to. She said that the judges didn't want their judging to look bad by giving a horse that has won many times before a low score because it would reflect on their judging skills! I think the same is rather true for those gorgeous, well known national quilt beauties. They are usually made with a lot is skill and artistry and deserve their awards. I have entered many judged shows both state and national. Sometimes I win and sometimes I don't. You have to just take it in stride. I enjoy sharing my work with other quilters. Sometimes I am just tickled to have my quilt hung beside a national prize winner that didn't happen to win a ribbon at that show either! I am thrilled when I do win any kind of a ribbon. You have to have a thick skin and a bit of humor when reading judges comments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LinneaMarie Posted March 2, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 2, 2013 Yes, Rita it was at LakeFarm park. I guess both judges were in the room when the quilt came up, and the mother excused herself. So that means the daughter knew it was done by the mother. It won Best machine Quilting!!!! And a First Place Ribbon! Hello?? Very unethical in my book. So there is an explanation pinned to the quilt. Saying the daughter did not know her mother quilted it. C'mon. Really? I think they both should have stepped away from judging it. And the show chairman should have called the woman who entered the quilt and explained it would not be judged and she could enter it again next year. (Hopefully they will not have the same judges) On top of all that, there were at LEAST 2 or 3 quilts that were MILES above this winner. Better choice of designs, better over all execution, better yada, yada, yada. Doesn't NQA have guidelines for this kind of thing? And WHY would they have 2 judges who know each other go out together? Let alone a mother/daughter team?? I know my mother would recognize my quilting; as I'm sure Karen McTavish's mother knows her daughters work. I heard it was done on a Statler, but it did not say that on the description. Just for the record I did not enter this show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RitaR Posted March 3, 2013 Report Share Posted March 3, 2013 At our Guilds Quilt Show, in 2011, we had a NQA Certified Judge from about 40 miles away. There are several ladies in the guild know her, and have been at shows where she has judged. Our Guild Pres. was searching for a judge that one of our members didn't know, which I took to mean the Pres. didn't trust the member to not contact the judge and ask for special treatment, so she selected one only she knew!! Several of us were helping with whatever was needed,, and 2 of us noticed that the judge was on the floor twice after ONLY the wall hangings and small art quilts were judged. She should have been judging quilts as there were 3 tables loaded with entries yet to be judged. The next time she came out, she had a note pad and was going to one quilt in one row and to another quilt in another row, making notes and went back and forth 3 times on that trip out. She didn't go out after any other categories.. Can you guess which won First Place and Best of Show? of course the two she was selecting before any other categories had been judged. To me that spells crooked judging and judge. We noticed that most of her ribboned choices were in one category, and that was applique, Best of Show and Best of Category. We sent emails to the NQA telling them of what we saw and noticed.. and asked to have her certification revoked.. We received phone calls from NQA about it and many questions were asked. We haven't had any notice of what took place. I will object to her being a judge at our show this Oct. and tell them why if they care. Sad to say, I've heard twice and read once on line, that the trend to judging quilts in local or state shows, is applique. I just wonder. The Pres and one other member both love and do a lot of applique. Also received ribbons. The two the judge pre-selected. RitaR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LinneaMarie Posted March 3, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 3, 2013 I wonder if it was the same judge?? That was at Lake farm Park? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrandmaLKB Posted March 3, 2013 Report Share Posted March 3, 2013 Well, that "smells" a bit fishy, doesn't it ???? Too bad unethical things like that have to happen and people find it necessary to cheat. I can see at our State Fair the "trends" and what wins ribbons and what doesn't. Best of Show one year was an "art" quilt - actually a wallhanging..........Nothing that spectacular in my opinion and there were at least a dozen other quilts that should have had the honor. BUT, I suppose that year the judges were going for the "art" quilts. I heard a lot of mumbling about it as I worked through the crowd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JenniferBernard Posted March 3, 2013 Report Share Posted March 3, 2013 Yes, I do agree that judges seem to prefer a particular style or type of quilting. One NQA judge we had at an Iowa Quilters Guild show preferred less dense quilting. A beautifully appliqué quilt that I "show quilted" won a 2 nd place ribbon. (This quilt was juried into the Des Moines AQS show.) While a Thimbleberries pieced quilt that I lightly custom quilted won Best Machine Quilting and Hung beside the Des Moines Quilters Guild raffle quilt that had been quilted by none other than Dawn C! I was honored by the award and my quilt hanging next to my first machine quilting teacher! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quiltingjoyful51 Posted March 4, 2013 Report Share Posted March 4, 2013 unfortunately all judges are human. I haven't figured out how to get one that isn't. Just like each of us they have favorite styles,colors and overall looks in quilts. Some will try to move with current rages while others will stick with traditional styles. It would be great if they could compare workmanship across the venues. In a more perfect world all of us that love our craft will get Blue ribbons just for showing up and sharing what we love. I hope everyone gets to see at least one inspiring quilt (winner or not ) at the shows you attend this season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LinneaMarie Posted March 4, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 4, 2013 The point being the daughter gave her mother BEST MACHINE QUILTING ribbon. Sounds pretty biased to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delld Posted March 4, 2013 Report Share Posted March 4, 2013 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pumpkinpatchquilter Posted March 4, 2013 Report Share Posted March 4, 2013 I saw this quilt yesterday at the quilt show, and read the note attached to the quilt. I see where this was a conflict of interest as far as the machine quilting. It could have been bias. But, in the defense of the daughter...my Mother and I are close and I would have no idea if I saw something she made or quilted out and about and I'm just about positive it would be the same for her. The thing that stinks about this is the downright nasty gossip that has hit the internet about it. I understand your motivation Linnea in posting this and wanting to make people aware. I mean no disrespect to you when I say that It really ruins it for people when things like this happen...however, some of the things people have been saying are more shameful than what happened at the quilt show...in my humble opinion. With all due respect, and I truly sincerely mean that when I say it, if there is an issue it should be taken up with the lady who put the show on instead of being blasted all over the internet stirring up nasty comments and gossip. We are all grown women here and some of the things I have read, not so much on this forum but others, are just truly petty. These things happen and should be corrected. But there are better more effective ways to handle it. Just my thoughts, for what it's worth, and that may not be much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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